FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars • Hacker News Board

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#91

Post by Scoundreller » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #11

benjohnson wrote: post #5

Frankly this seems paternalistic. It's hard for me to read this and not translate it as: "We found something non-white people enjoy and we're going to ruin it. For their own good."

New Zealand has an age requirement for tobacco, and has also (edit: proposed) to ban sales of it entirely based on birth year (2004 and forward) to phase out its consumption. I’d say this doesn’t go far enough. We’ve known for over half a century the damage tobacco consumption does to a person’s body. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/new-zealand-ai...

> We’ve known for over half a century the damage tobacco consumption does to a person’s body.

Sorta. We don’t have any randomized trials in people. Even harder to blind the participants for extra science.

We have tons of epidemiological evidence that it’s bad, but that’s piled with pesky cofounders.

Being the type of person that could become/does become dependent on tobacco does terrible things.

Being the type of person that can shake off that addiction does great things.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#92

Post by whatshisface » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #84

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I mean if you increase prices 1000x it would have that effect but if you increase them closer to what a place like NZ or Aus does (I think like ~75%, it's been a while since I studied this stuff then the cost is offputting for many but it means that the societal costs aren't externalized onto nonsmokers in the form of additional healthcare burden and the like. There's lots of arguments about pigouvian taxes and…

Agreed with your premise in full. Increasing the price isn't necessarily about making it inaccessible to people so they stop smoking (though it is a minor part of it that is a nice side-effect), it is to make sure that the additional burden placed on the healthcare system by those people is balanced out by taxes paid in form of increased prices on tobacco products. If people don't stop smoking, then might as well mak…

>it is to make sure that the additional burden placed on the healthcare system by those people is balanced out by taxes paid in form of increased prices on tobacco products.

That only makes sense in places where the taxes go to healthcare organizations. In the American system, that doesn't happen - there's no way that a city will hand the proceeds of its tobacco taxes to insurance companies.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#93

Post by duped » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

I heard a former tobacco marketer say once that the only thing that sells cigarettes is a sign that says "OPEN."

A more effective harm reduction strategy would be to make the things more expensive and inconvenient to purchase. But that's a harder sell than banning flavored tobacco products.

Meanwhile, alcohol comes in numerous pleasant and sweet varieties and you can buy cookies with enough THC to knock out an elephant. It's a bit of a double standard to go after tobacco products, even if they have fewer redeeming qualities and low potential for responsible use.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#94

Post by __blockcipher__ » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

lainga wrote: post #56

nanidin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a public health issue on the same order of magnitude as COVID-19, but happening every year: “Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.” [0] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast...

Is there an active or other ingredient in tobacco that makes its smoke more harmful than cannabis? Or is it the method of ingestion?

Yes. This is a common misconception. It’s not that inhaling any kind of smoke is inherently dangerous. It’s specifically the oxidative damage that tobacco causes that makes it so uniquely deleterious. Reactive oxygen species are no joke.

By contrast cannabis is a natural anti-oxidant. Smoking cannabis might be correlated with more bronchitis but none of the cancer, heart disease, [insert every other tobacco harm]. BTW I seem to recall particle size is different between tobacco and cannabis smoke but I think the oxidative damage is the main reason

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#95

Post by lacker » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

lainga wrote: post #56

nanidin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a public health issue on the same order of magnitude as COVID-19, but happening every year: “Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.” [0] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast...

Is there an active or other ingredient in tobacco that makes its smoke more harmful than cannabis? Or is it the method of ingestion?

They both put tar in your lungs. A tobacco smoker generally smokes far more cigarettes than a cannabis smoker. Per-breath, cannabis seems to put more tar in your lungs, since it's generally unfiltered. But a tobacco smoker takes many more breaths of smoke.

Some information here:

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/mari...

As far as I can tell, vaping is far, far safer than inhaling smoke, for both tobacco and cannabis. The healthiest strategy is to avoid all of these things of course.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#96

Post by sadgrip » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

LargeWu wrote: post #27

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

I think a more accurate way of framing it is "Menthols have been targeted specifically to black people, and also, they're even more harmful than regular cigarettes". It's definitely not "let's take this away because black people like it".

Sorry but where is the harm reduction for everyone else's race? Doesn't seem like it's a priority since the people in powerful also enjoy those vices. It's a bit coincidental that the races with less power also have the vices that they need to be protected by. My family is Mexican and they love tequila. I can guarantee you that if it was banned they'd all drink less alcohol and would be much less of a burden on our healthcare system. Somehow I'm yet to see a suggested ban of flavored Smirnoffs because it's turning our white college students into alcoholics.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#97

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

> But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird.

> Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on?

Like other flavors have been, they are banned because of the youth impact.

The racial skew, and whose youth regulators previously were and weren’t concerned about, is why menthols were previously excluded from the flavor ban, but its kind of weird to call out eliminating the racially-motivated discrepancy as a problem.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#98

Post by gburdell3 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

Flavors aren't effective at hooking young people, nicotine is. Nobody smokes because it tastes good, menthol or not. This is just another ban that makes some people feel good about themselves while pissing off the rest. I lean pretty far left, but this is the kind of meaningless ban that makes people hate Democrats.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#99

Post by throwawaysea » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #57

howeyc wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing how positions differ. I'm of the opinion you can ruin your own body all you want. As long as you don't breath it into my face, have at it. I wouldn't advise anyone to take up smoking though. I think you should be able to buy cocaine (as an example) as easily as tobacco.

I have seen too many addicts slowly kill themselves (tobacco, opioids, cocaine) to be able to morally maintain this position. It’s easy to say when you assume everyone is of sound mind and capable of self regulation, which is not the case. People have demons and mental health challenges that make them vulnerable. You’d need a model like Portugal, where they fund treatment programs and social services along side liber…

> People have demons and mental health challenges that make them vulnerable.

Maybe some small number of people do. But why should their problems result in everyone else being deprived of choice?

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#100

Post by endisneigh » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #82

nprz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some how the democratic party is in favor of prohibiting the use of menthol cigarettes, but they're also in favor of legalizing marijuana? Very weird.

Tobacco is vastly more harmful than marijuana. I don't necessarily agree with the justification but I don't think these positions are inconsistent.

I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but you could just ban both things you know.