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Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

bbc.com

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Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#91

Post by dTal »

dilap wrote: post #39

I don't care or know if it counts as a "monopoly" (I guess I can use Android...), but as a consumer and human being, I would love it if governments compelled big companies to act more in the public interest and less in their own. In particular, I would love to be able to install 3rd party app stores and software w/o having to resort to jailbreaks or weird certificate hacks. To me, it seems obvious this would be a net…

So much this. Let's keep our actual utility functions in view. Who cares whether or not it's technically a "monopoly"? It sucks!

Worth remembering that "monopoly" wasn't a bad word until we decided it was in the early 20th century. We can decide other things are bad too.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#92

Post by dTal »

_kbh_ wrote: post #62
geenew wrote: post #15

It's hard to argue with the claim - if you have an iOS phone or tablet, for example, it is a monopoly, since it's the only place you can buy a program for your computer. The walled garden has real benefits in security and privacy, but seems to require centralized control, and comes at the expense of user freedom. A solution to the monopoly pricing problem could be to treat app store controllers (currently A & G) to t…

AltStore allows you to run any app you want on your iPhone without a jailbreak. How does the App Store have a monopoly when there are literally alternatives too it. This ignores Cydia and the other app stores that require you to jailbreak your phone. Apple has no more of a monopoly on iOS app sales then Google has on android apps, Microsoft has on the Xbox store, Sony has on the Sony store, or Nintendo has on the Nin…

https://altstore.io/faq/

Not exactly "first class" is it?

"I followed the instructions, why is AltStore still not installing for me?" > This could happen for a number of reasons

"AltStore freezes/takes forever to sign-in." > This could happen for a number of reasons

"AltStore says “Could not find AltServer” when trying to refresh." > This means AltStore could not discover a running AltServer on the same WiFi network

So you have to run your own local server? And it's janky as all get-out? This basically proves the point. If your app isn't on the app store, for 99.999% of users it doesn't exist; they will not be able to install it.

At least on Android you can hand them an .apk and they can trivially install it.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#93

Post by hyperman1 »

hayst4ck wrote: post #64
rektide wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With multiple app stores, the apps might vote on a different store, and all of a sudden as a comsumer, I have to install 20 different app stores to get the full set of apps I want. Fear of freedom here is just remarkable. Oh no! What if I had choices! What if there wasn't a monopolist protecting me!

Look at you! What an intellectual you are. You sure got my number. That's me, afraid of freedom. Freedom is good, there are clearly no bounds to freedom. There are clearly no counter forces to freedom. You know what the cost of freedom is? Education. When you are educated freedom is good, but when you are not, it is dangerous. Being able to directly install a virus is a freedom, and for a security researcher or human…

This same discussion has been fought out with voting rights. Clearly only the big land owners should vote. The average peasant does not have the knowledge or experience required to participate in governing a country. Same for women. Peasants should stay on their land, women in their kitchens, voting should happen by those educated and well read.

The people claiming this were probably right, but the solution was radically different from what they envisioned: Peasants and women fought for the right to get schooling. The news became available for everyone. They got in fact the tools needed to perform the job.

We should strive for the same things here. Even knowing a majority might get malware or vote for Trump. The minority that makes maximal use of the given opportunities has demonstrated they will make the world a better place for all of us.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#94

Post by dageshi »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #79
toyg wrote: post #74

This will be round 2 in the fight for formalizing the role of OS developers versus App developers. Round 1 was the MS antitrust case, the outcome of which was clearly too weak to survive in the long run. The definition of general-purpose Operating Systems should be formalized, and there should be a clear separation of roles: if you make an OS you cannot make apps and services, end of story. Then force Apple, Google,…

>there should be a clear separation of roles: if you make an OS you cannot make apps and services, end of story. This. How come the authorities cracked down hard on Microsoft in the 90's and early 2000's for exactly this but aren't doing the same with Apple and Google now? I remember the days when, at least in the EU, due to antitrust laws, Windows XP had to come without Windows Media Player and without Internet Expl…

Microsoft low balled Netscape when they tried to buy them and then set out to crush them anyway with IE, it was largely seen as bullying behaviour. Google/Apple don't really do this, they buy what they see as promising companies with good ideas and pay plenty for them, so does Facebook with social.

So the difference is, Google/Apple never really look like bullies the way MS did, instead they look like companies innovating.

For the most part in mobile google just brought its already successful products to android, it hasn't from what I call explicitly tried to kill an already successful product in another niche? Well maybe with its various "social" attempts but they failed so bad it never became an issue.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#96

Post by ksec »

c3534l wrote: post #16

I feel like the entire world has forgotten what a monopoly is. Apparently both Apple and Google are monopolies despite being competitors of one another. Programmers clearly talk about developing apps for one platform or another and sometimes give up on developing for one because the approval process was annoying or arbitrary. Consumers have a choice in the phones they buy and whether to even use a phone app for that…

>Apparently both Apple and Google are monopolies despite being competitors of one another.

It is called Duopoly.

>but it seems we've completely lost the thread on what a monopoly is.

monopoly | məˈnɒp(ə)li |

• a company or group having exclusive control over a commodity or service:

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#97

Post by wilde »

geenew wrote: post #15

It's hard to argue with the claim - if you have an iOS phone or tablet, for example, it is a monopoly, since it's the only place you can buy a program for your computer. The walled garden has real benefits in security and privacy, but seems to require centralized control, and comes at the expense of user freedom. A solution to the monopoly pricing problem could be to treat app store controllers (currently A & G) to t…

There are plenty of competing walled gardens on PC that sell video games. They seem to do fine.

Apple doesn't even manage to protect its customers all that well with $64B in revenue: https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s...

The App Store’s function is very similar to HR’s. It protects Apple, and other benefits are ancillary.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#98

Post by ksec »

username90 wrote: post #89
Someone wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see that going anywhere. I would expect both parties to argue that this is conscious parallelism, which Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion#Conscious_para... ) states “is very hard to prosecute because it may occur without any collusion between the competitors”. They’ll also argue that they don’t keep prices high in their stores and provide value that makes that 15/30% cut worthwhile. An…

EU law already handled the credit card duopoly, should work the same here. The changes didn't propagate to US though.

The Apple Apologist keep saying it is Apple's platform, Apple dictates the rules, if you dont like it go somewhere else.

And yet when EU say it is their market their rules, Apple apologist keep saying foul.

You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have very small market shares.

Today, the iPhone has 66% market share in the United States, 75% of U.S. App Store revenues, and over 80% of time spent on the mobile internet.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#99

Post by jsnell »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #79
toyg wrote: post #74

This will be round 2 in the fight for formalizing the role of OS developers versus App developers. Round 1 was the MS antitrust case, the outcome of which was clearly too weak to survive in the long run. The definition of general-purpose Operating Systems should be formalized, and there should be a clear separation of roles: if you make an OS you cannot make apps and services, end of story. Then force Apple, Google,…

>there should be a clear separation of roles: if you make an OS you cannot make apps and services, end of story. This. How come the authorities cracked down hard on Microsoft in the 90's and early 2000's for exactly this but aren't doing the same with Apple and Google now? I remember the days when, at least in the EU, due to antitrust laws, Windows XP had to come without Windows Media Player and without Internet Expl…

Hasn't the EU already imposed at least as many restrictions on Android than they ever did on Windows? The search engine choice screen, cancellation of anti-forking agreements, and unbundling search/browser from the rest of the apps and services.

But I do find it crazy how utterly disinterested they were with Apple for a decade, and how limited the current investigation into just in app purchases is.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#100

Post by ksec »

RunawayGalaxy wrote: post #35
awat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does when you literally can’t operate your store in another mall. I also don’t think this analogy scales very well since many stores operate both in and out of closed shopping centers. Including Apple’s stores.

> It does when you literally can’t operate your store in another mall. Android exists > I also don’t think this analogy scales very well since many stores operate both in and out of closed shopping centers. Including Apple’s stores. How is the scalability of the analogy relevant?

>Android exists

So another Mall also charges 30%.

Do I have a third mall to choose from? Or can I set up a third mall ? What is the market entry barrier for a third mall ? Are these Mall a necessity in the community?

I wish people would stop using over simplified analogy.

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