EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd • Hacker News Board

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#91

Post by RHSeeger » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:39 AM UTC

t0mas88 wrote: post #52

fxtentacle wrote: post #5

In case you don't know who Proctorio is: (like me) Apparently it's a supervision software that students are forced to install on their private computer and (as expected) it'll do its worst to invade your privacy and flag "suspicious" things, based on which the university might punish you. "Suspicious" here means wearing glasses [3] or looking around in the room or blinking too much [4] or having eye and/or skin color…

Wow, is that software legal to force upon your students? If you tried this in Europe, even with the student explicitly clicking "I consent", you would still be facing pretty serious GDPR penalties because the student had no other option than to accept making their consent invalid.

It would appear that it's already in use in Europe and has win in court.

https://gdprhub.eu/index.php?title=Rb._Amsterdam_-_C/13/6846...

> The Amsterdam Court of First Instance rejected the request by student representatives and an individual student for a preliminary injunction against the use of digital surveillance software for exams by a public university. The court ruled that measures against covid-19 did not allow for a suitable alternative and the processing could therefore be based on Article 6(1)(e) GDPR.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#92

Post by mkl » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:39 AM UTC

cassalian wrote: post #62

mkl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the lawsuit is a terrible thing to do full stop, and doesn't seem to make business sense either. Maybe they think his critiques are worse than the bad press. I agree about the privacy concerns, and in normal circumstances I wouldn't use proctoring software, because all my students would be local (or they would have signed up as distance students knowing this kind of thing would be needed). I would also have m…

> I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option... shutting down education until the pandemic's over is unfeasible. Is it necessary though? Have you considered there are ways other than testing for a student to demonstrate their knowledge on a subject? Projects, presentations, and writing all come to mind as effective ways to measure knowledge on a subject and do not require treating all studen…

Yes, but my subject is maths :-). 1st and 2nd year engineering maths don't really have projects, presentations, or writing as options, as we mostly care about whether they know particular fundamental mathematical techniques and skills. All those options also have the problem of knowing who did the work.

From talking to remote students, I don't think they feel like they're being treated like cheaters. Instead, they seem happy we're making their study possible, and accepting of what they're asked to do. They know it's important that they can demonstrate unequivocally that they have particular skills.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#93

Post by davrosthedalek » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:39 AM UTC

mkl wrote: post #85

necovek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which does not make tracking everyone a solution to the problem of cheating in exams. Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another. To me, focusing on finding "cheaters" makes education a competition. I never felt cheaters got anything over me in my studies, and I never fe…

When your institution's reputation is at risk, you want to prevent it. Honest students don't get a lesser grade; that's not the problem. If the cheaters want to cheat their way through life, that's their problem. My problem is to make sure the rest of my students end up with a well-respected degree. I.e. the problem is being solved for the honest students, the ones I want to spend my time on.

In many courses, the grades are curved, so cheaters might really make the grades of honest students worse.

While I am against these surveillance software, making sure that tests are fair is very hard, especially since everything is online now thanks to COVID.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#94

Post by scbrg » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:39 AM UTC

yunohn wrote: post #53

everyone wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reckon the majority of english speakers who read 'Proctorio' will immediately think anus.

I think the majority of English speakers are completely unaware of this meaning. “Proctor” on the other hand, is something they would’ve heard of in an exam setting.

Is this one of those regional things? Is the same word used throughout the entire English speaking world?

Not a native English speaker myself, so my association was to the Greek word as well.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#95

Post by amcoastal » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:40 AM UTC

mkl wrote: post #79

amcoastal wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As both a TA and a student during the virus, we did better and so can you. Stop trying to shoehorn your in person lesson plans and exams into virtual and design new material and tests. Dont be a shitty teacher just because you're too lazy to change your now dated ways.

Please don't make assumptions or resort to baseless insults. We have designed entirely new fully-online interactive courses in response to this. In other courses, where we have e.g. 640 local students and 10 online, they need to sit the same test for it to be fair.

Sounds like you need to design an online version of that course if you're going to allow online students to take it.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#96

Post by mkl » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:41 AM UTC

necovek wrote: post #87

mkl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the lawsuit is a terrible thing to do full stop, and doesn't seem to make business sense either. Maybe they think his critiques are worse than the bad press. I agree about the privacy concerns, and in normal circumstances I wouldn't use proctoring software, because all my students would be local (or they would have signed up as distance students knowing this kind of thing would be needed). I would also have m…

> no invigilation leads to cheating (by few students but enough to be a real problem, especially for professional qualifications - my direct experience and institution experience); How is it a real problem (I've never cheated but always felt I got fair grades, not affected by whatever cheaters did)? If a student memorizes everything they need for the exam today, but forget all of it tomorrow, is that useful? That's a…

It's a problem for institution reputation, and for remaining accredited to confer professional degrees controlled by external organisations, like engineering degrees.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#97

Post by antientropic » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:42 AM UTC

t0mas88 wrote: post #52

fxtentacle wrote: post #5

In case you don't know who Proctorio is: (like me) Apparently it's a supervision software that students are forced to install on their private computer and (as expected) it'll do its worst to invade your privacy and flag "suspicious" things, based on which the university might punish you. "Suspicious" here means wearing glasses [3] or looking around in the room or blinking too much [4] or having eye and/or skin color…

Wow, is that software legal to force upon your students? If you tried this in Europe, even with the student explicitly clicking "I consent", you would still be facing pretty serious GDPR penalties because the student had no other option than to accept making their consent invalid.

I wouldn't be too sure about those GDPR penalties. Dutch universities are also using Proctorio, with the recorded footage being sent to the US: https://www.volkskrant.nl/columns-opinie/opinie-universiteit...

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#98

Post by christophilus » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:43 AM UTC

jasonjayr wrote: post #74

necovek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which does not make tracking everyone a solution to the problem of cheating in exams. Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another. To me, focusing on finding "cheaters" makes education a competition. I never felt cheaters got anything over me in my studies, and I never fe…

While I despise software like this and how high-stakes and petty it can be, keep in mind that it's in the institution's interests to not only provide a quality education, but to defend the value of their brand. You might have worked very hard for a diploma from University X, but if it was found that University X was handing out diplomas like candy to other students that were not as academically rigorous, it weakens t…

Requiring distopian spyware doesn’t weaken your brand. It destroys it. For most of history, reputable universities built their brand just fine without any software at all.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#99

Post by mkl » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:43 AM UTC

davrosthedalek wrote: post #93

mkl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your institution's reputation is at risk, you want to prevent it. Honest students don't get a lesser grade; that's not the problem. If the cheaters want to cheat their way through life, that's their problem. My problem is to make sure the rest of my students end up with a well-respected degree. I.e. the problem is being solved for the honest students, the ones I want to spend my time on.

In many courses, the grades are curved, so cheaters might really make the grades of honest students worse. While I am against these surveillance software, making sure that tests are fair is very hard, especially since everything is online now thanks to COVID.

Not in my experience. I don't think there are enough cheaters to shift the curve (the noise from year to year is much more significant), and despite what you'd expect, the people hired to do others' assessments aren't necessarily very good at it!

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#100

Post by dartharva » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:43 AM UTC

My university forcibly pushed students into online proctored examinations with similar privacy-invasive software too, despite repeated concerns raised by both students and instructors.

As expected, it turned out to be a colossal failure - students found the remote "invigilators" didn't pay attention for jack shit and started cheating in exams, leading to the college forcibly bringing the entire batch back to their campus and taking all the tests again along with the ones in the next term.