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Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

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Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#91

Post by mcny »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #74
mcny wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The part of the problem is that everything these days has to be done on federal level. I absolutely hate this state rights argument. I for one would gladly support repealing the words the states from the tenth amendment. States don’t have magical rights. People have rights. I have a feeling anyone who supports “state rights” would also support the idea of “separate but equal”. Please do not associate yourself with…

Sorry, what's wrong with California regulating emissions? People have rights. And the most straightforward way to cater for these rights is to split people into groups. If 90% of people in Alabama don't want weed legalized, don't force it upon them. Save the vigor for what's really important.

> Sorry, what's wrong with California regulating emissions?

Nothing. Ideally it would be at the federal level so California wouldn't have to do it though.

> If 90% of people in Alabama don't want weed legalized, don't force it upon them.

No. The hypothetical ninety percent of people in Alabama have no right to restrict the rights of the other ten percent. It doesn't affect them. They should stay out of it.

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#92

Post by GeekyBear »

chmod600 wrote: post #84
paxys wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny enough in this case how Kamala Harris feels might be more important, since she'll likely cast the deciding vote in the Senate. I can't see Biden vetoing the legalization bill if it passes both chambers, regardless of his personal views.

Why do you think the Senate will tie?

Congress has been using their power of the purse to forbid using Federal dollars to prosecute people and businesses in states where pot is legal every year since 2014.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-medical-pot-20141216-st...

Although the courts eventually had to shut down the Obama DOJ for continuing to prosecute in those states anyway.

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-medical-pot-201...

The votes are there when you aren't openly calling what you are doing "full legalization".

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#93

Post by dragonwriter »

GeekyBear wrote: post #59
paxys wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny enough in this case how Kamala Harris feels might be more important, since she'll likely cast the deciding vote in the Senate. I can't see Biden vetoing the legalization bill if it passes both chambers, regardless of his personal views.

Typically, the Vice President will follow the President's agenda, regardless of how they personally feel. I'm sure she'll offer her views privately and then follow the President's lead publicly, just as Biden did when he opposed Obama's Afghanistan surge and remaining there forever. However, on this issue, a group of Republicans and Democrats have been renewing a ban on using Federal dollars to prosecute individuals…

> However, on this issue, a group of Republicans and Democrats have been renewing a ban on using Federal dollars to prosecute individuals for pot in states where it is legal since the Obama years, regardless of which party controls the Senate.

Only where the use is consistent with state law limited to medical use; the House tried to expand that to include state law covering non-medical use in 2019 and 2020, but in both cases this change was not included in matching Senate bills and not restored in reconciliation of the bills.

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#94

Post by paxys »

sneak wrote: post #76
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. Some drugs like meth, heroin, fentanyl, PCP can cause permanent brain damage at common recreational doses and hurt society overall. Those shouldn't be legal IMO

Society has no claim over whether or not I (or anyone else) choose to cause permanent brain damage to myself. That's the point: drug prohibition is inherently immoral because it denies an adult human being agency over their own body. It's mine to destroy if I see fit; it's mine to build it I see fit. There is no victim, for example, if I decide to cut off my finger. No one has been wronged, and no crime has occurred.

Society is still responsible for your medical bills. And there's zero chance that someone who has wrecked their body/mind through hard drug use will be able to survive on their own without affecting the lives of others in any way. It doesn't take long for this individual freedom to turn into a widespread public health problem – see the streets of San Francisco for example.

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#95

Post by viraptor »

sneak wrote: post #81
viraptor wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have a good comparison right now... because allowing a good computation is considered a bad idea. Selling alcohol to people who obviously are going to drink and drive, people who are aggressive and drink is restricted in some places though. The issue is that we expect most people to have a drink once in a whole and continue with their lives as usual. We can't realistically expect recreational heroin use with…

We also can't realistically expect recreational alcohol use with no long-term issues either: alcohol kills about 100k people per year in the USA. That's not a reason to ban it. The issues are caused by the user, to the user . If users are causing issues to others (violence, theft, drunk driving, et c), those are separate and already-illegal things that can and should be enforced. Arresting people for possession is ba…

> The issues are caused by the user, to the user.

For alcohol? I dare you to say that to the face of someone with alcohol addiction in family. It's a simplistic black and white view. We negotiated thresholds where alcohol is restricted (age, distribution, setting) while not banning it completely. Neither unrestricted access nor prohibition were the answer.

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#96

Post by nathanaldensr »

sneak wrote: post #76
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. Some drugs like meth, heroin, fentanyl, PCP can cause permanent brain damage at common recreational doses and hurt society overall. Those shouldn't be legal IMO

Society has no claim over whether or not I (or anyone else) choose to cause permanent brain damage to myself. That's the point: drug prohibition is inherently immoral because it denies an adult human being agency over their own body. It's mine to destroy if I see fit; it's mine to build it I see fit. There is no victim, for example, if I decide to cut off my finger. No one has been wronged, and no crime has occurred.

You are incredibly naive. Have you seen a family member fall to addiction? Have you seen what it does to those around them who love them? We aren't just floating brain vessels in space; we live in a complex society of interdependencies and close biological bonds. Your choices nearly always affect others, especially with something like addiction.

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#97

Post by nathanaldensr »

sneak wrote: post #81
viraptor wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have a good comparison right now... because allowing a good computation is considered a bad idea. Selling alcohol to people who obviously are going to drink and drive, people who are aggressive and drink is restricted in some places though. The issue is that we expect most people to have a drink once in a whole and continue with their lives as usual. We can't realistically expect recreational heroin use with…

We also can't realistically expect recreational alcohol use with no long-term issues either: alcohol kills about 100k people per year in the USA. That's not a reason to ban it. The issues are caused by the user, to the user . If users are causing issues to others (violence, theft, drunk driving, et c), those are separate and already-illegal things that can and should be enforced. Arresting people for possession is ba…

Probabilities matter. Cost-benefit matters. You can't just dismiss it with "well, some people don't commit crimes, therefore it's immoral to restrict freedoms." It's a gradient, and the people on the whole reserve the right to determine where the hard line is. This is one of the beautiful things about the fact the US has many states--each state gets to decide where they draw that hard line. If you don't like it you can find another state that draws the line elsewhere.

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#98

Post by dragonwriter »

GeekyBear wrote: post #92
chmod600 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the Senate will tie?

Congress has been using their power of the purse to forbid using Federal dollars to prosecute people and businesses in states where pot is legal every year since 2014. https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-medical-pot-20141216-st... Although the courts eventually had to shut down the Obama DOJ for continuing to prosecute in those states anyway. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-medical-pot-201... The votes…

> Congress has been using their power of the purse to forbid using Federal dollars to prosecute those in states where pot is legal every year since 2014.

No, they prohibit prosecuting use consistent with state medical use laws; in both 2019 and 2020 the House voted to extend that to state-legal use generally, but the Senate didn’t go along. (The House, but not the Senate, also passed a decriminalization bill in 2020.)

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#99

Post by GeekyBear »

dragonwriter wrote: post #98
GeekyBear wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congress has been using their power of the purse to forbid using Federal dollars to prosecute people and businesses in states where pot is legal every year since 2014. https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-medical-pot-20141216-st... Although the courts eventually had to shut down the Obama DOJ for continuing to prosecute in those states anyway. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-medical-pot-201... The votes…

> Congress has been using their power of the purse to forbid using Federal dollars to prosecute those in states where pot is legal every year since 2014. No, they prohibit prosecuting use consistent with state medical use laws; in both 2019 and 2020 the House voted to extend that to state-legal use generally, but the Senate didn’t go along. (The House, but not the Senate, also passed a decriminalization bill in 2020.…

I seem to remember the Trump DOJ threatening to renew prosecutions and members of Congress making it clear that they would expand the prosecution ban if they had to.

They are perfectly willing to make pot legal, however, they prefer to avoid looking like they are doing so as long as possible.

Biden's open opposition is the bigger issue here. Lets not forget who was behind a lot of the drug war legislation.

>Biden was a major Democratic leader in spearheading America’s war on drugs during the 1980s and ’90s.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/25/18282870/j...

Re: Americans overwhelmingly say marijuana should be legal

#100

Post by chmod600 »

GeekyBear wrote: post #92
chmod600 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the Senate will tie?

Congress has been using their power of the purse to forbid using Federal dollars to prosecute people and businesses in states where pot is legal every year since 2014. https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-medical-pot-20141216-st... Although the courts eventually had to shut down the Obama DOJ for continuing to prosecute in those states anyway. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-medical-pot-201... The votes…

I don't see why that means there will be a tie.
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