Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired • Hacker News Board

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#91

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 10:53 AM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #60

apples_oranges wrote: post #4

We need to stop building a world without trust. Always checking, ensuring, surveilling (,mining on a blockchain), this is anti-human and will only lead to unhappiness, burnout, depression. It's no way to live unless we want to be like the Borg eventually.

That's what you get with larger organizations. But these large organization is what allows for the specialization and economies of scale that make up modern civilization. For example, if you go to some big box store and forget to make you pay for something, I don't know many people who will point out the mistake and pay their due. The same people will probably be more inclined to do so if the shop in question is a sm…

You're right with the varying amounts of trust in different social structures, but recent developments in and adjacent to the crypto space are a whole new level of lack of trust.

The country may not trust their citizens when it comes to paying taxes, but it's not an absolute lack of trust. They set up regulations outlining rules and punishments, back them with various enforcement mechanisms, and... they trust it's enough for vast majority of the citizens.

They trust most people will be nudged towards paying the right amount of taxes - that's why they don't generally surveil every single transaction you're making. It's hard for a regular person to get on the IRS radar in a way other than interacting with government services in a weird way somehow. When they notice something suspicious, they will follow up, but the process set in the aforementioned laws is again very much trust-based, giving the suspect the ability to explain themselves at various stages, and not digging through one's entire life until late in the process. It's based on a reasonable assumption that most of the issues a country's IRS would flag are honest mistakes.

Same with every other process in most (all?) societies. There are directions, nudges, deterrents. Not total surveillance. But the newest trends in technology businesses seem to desperately want to move us towards the latter.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#92

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 10:56 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #83

apples_oranges wrote: post #4

We need to stop building a world without trust. Always checking, ensuring, surveilling (,mining on a blockchain), this is anti-human and will only lead to unhappiness, burnout, depression. It's no way to live unless we want to be like the Borg eventually.

One of the most important philosophers of enlightenment/industrial era was Jeremy Bentham... of utilitarian fame. He designed a building called a Panopticon, a design for a factory that allows many workers to be monitored closely by managers. He also thought it would make a good design for prisons, another interest areas. A lot of modern prisons resemble/derive from the Panopticon. We need to remember that not everyt…

The core difference that makes this new problem more worrying is, Panopticon only created a perception of being constantly watched. The managers/guards could see into every cell, but not all of them at the same time - but the workers/prisoners couldn't know if they're being watched at any given moment, so they had to assume they were.

As bad as it is, it's still better than actually being constantly watched.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#93

Post by GuB-42 » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 10:56 AM UTC

Gregoriy wrote: post #54

apples_oranges wrote: post #4

We need to stop building a world without trust. Always checking, ensuring, surveilling (,mining on a blockchain), this is anti-human and will only lead to unhappiness, burnout, depression. It's no way to live unless we want to be like the Borg eventually.

I had a team of 10, two of them are remote, we recruted a third person, we work 40 hours a week, usually more or less flexible. We have recruted another person, after 6 month of work with him i have noticed some strange delays, like take too much time to respond etc, we work in pretty much relaxed environement so it was not visible very much. After a quick search i have found his freelance account and proposed him to…

Fire him, obviously.

But that's an interesting example. The guy is doing a poor job, so if you want to be impartial, you should fire him for not meeting your expectations.

But it is natural to understand why he is doing a poor job. I mean, maybe it is just a temporary personal issue (ex: sick kids), or maybe just not his fault (ex: task more complex than expected, broken IT, etc...). Or maybe he needs training. It is fair to fire him without trying to understand?

Unfortunately, one possibility is dishonesty, as it is the case for your employee. And that's when surveillance comes in. You can flip the argument of "accept monitoring or get fired" around in favor of the employee as in "you are doing a poor job, normally we would fire you for that, but it may not be your fault, so if you allow us to make sure of that (by monitoring), we will try to find another solution".

Of course, it can and is often abused, but it is not black and white.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#94

Post by iso1210 » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 10:56 AM UTC

da_big_ghey wrote: post #23

iso1210 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a reason you need to keep the people in your military against the totalitarianists. US police officers kill about 1000 people a year, guns don't seem to protect them.

Yes you are right on this. Policeman killing is random in most case, so not surprpse here. Also one may not be using gun against police; I am presuming that in rebelion one may, state monopoley on force is going out the window.

The state has no monopoly on force. The US armed forces are made up of US citizens. They are sworn to defend the constitution against all threats, foreign and domestic. That could include a president and congress, it could include corporations, it could include Canada.

The narrative of armed citizens operating in a structure to defend citizens and the constitution works fine if you don't have armed citizens operating in a structure to defend citizens and the constitution.

If you lose hearts and minds of one group armed US citizens (the military), why is your group of armed citizens any more justified?

If you don't lose it, why do you need the armaments?

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#95

Post by varispeed » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 11:00 AM UTC

Jenk wrote: post #69

varispeed wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the UK government introduced zero rights employment just few days ago and that would be totally legal here.

This user is referring to IR35. It's been given the nickname "No Rights Employment" by those affected by it.

The change to IR35 lets companies decide the status of the worker hired as a contractor - the contract only needs a few clauses to ensure it falls in-scope and it means that a deemed employee is not a subject of employment law as a result. Now nothing stops e.g. Amazon or Uber from hiring any kind of worker this way. Some MPs now urge that this gets changed so that worker in-scope would enjoy employment rights and they are hoping this will happen during this Finance Bill. My guess is companies are going to wait few months and see.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#96

Post by regularfry » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 11:00 AM UTC

nmeofthestate wrote: post #81

jsty wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a special employment status. As a contractor in the UK you have fewer rights (pensions, notice periods, unfair dismissal, etc.) than an employee, but used to have not-inconsiderable tax benefits to trade off against this. Thanks to HMRC reforms known as IR35, a lot of contractors are now considered akin to "disguised employees" and taxed as such - thus being taxed like an employee without the requisite legal…

Contractors have a tendency to frame the gradual clamping down on their lucrative tax loopholes in hyperbolic self-pitying ways like this. Pretty savvy I guess.

The net result is not so much that the loopholes have gone away, but that the contracts have. Employers are refusing to engage with the new IR35 system rather than risk getting on the wrong side of HMRC.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#97

Post by feurio » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 11:01 AM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #87

feurio wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in the UK government introduced zero rights employment just few days ago and that would be totally legal here. I am resolutely not a fan of our current UK government and they will certainly work to weaken worker's rights, but (absent of any corroberating references) this is just BS.

It's not BS. It is packaged as changes to IR35 and sold as "making sure that workers who work as employees pay the same tax as employees." More info: https://norightsemployee.uk/faq Some MPs woke up quite too late: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252499096/Loan-Charge-Gr... The articles refer to those workers as contractors and mainly focus on IT market, but these rules can be applied to any workers.

Thank you for clarifying. But how would IR35 apply in this case - she was an employee anyway, not a contractor and did not have her own limited company.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#98

Post by throwaway29303 » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 11:02 AM UTC

extradesgo wrote: post #12

throwaway29303 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right but ironically the very same people that are now complaining about these measures were the same that enabled it in the first place. All for the sake of convenience. Pandora's jar was opened and there's really no way in sight to put its filth back and close it for good. And one of the worst parts is when this information can be used by people (nations, criminals, etc) for any reason.

> ”the very same people that are now complaining about these measures were the same that enabled it in the first place” Wage workers? No. That’s just false. I don’t know what exactly you’re trying to say but it’s wrong. This is just another appearance of the same class warfare that drives slavery. Working people didn’t ask for this any more than slaves asked for slavery.

You're not seeing the full picture. People chose to use products and/or services which collect behavioural information for advertising purposes (or put it simply $ for data). This wanting to install tracking software on a personal device is a side-effect of this data collection mentality.

Maybe it'll come crashing down - this whole concept of $ for data - some day, but until then you'll see all of these abuses. And again it's sad how conspiracy theorists were mocked at for this exact hellish scenario. Either people start demanding for something different or the abuse will not stop.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#99

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 11:02 AM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #93

Gregoriy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a team of 10, two of them are remote, we recruted a third person, we work 40 hours a week, usually more or less flexible. We have recruted another person, after 6 month of work with him i have noticed some strange delays, like take too much time to respond etc, we work in pretty much relaxed environement so it was not visible very much. After a quick search i have found his freelance account and proposed him to…

Fire him, obviously. But that's an interesting example. The guy is doing a poor job, so if you want to be impartial, you should fire him for not meeting your expectations. But it is natural to understand why he is doing a poor job. I mean, maybe it is just a temporary personal issue (ex: sick kids), or maybe just not his fault (ex: task more complex than expected, broken IT, etc...). Or maybe he needs training. It is…

> You can flip the argument of "accept monitoring or get fired" around in favor of the employee as in "you are doing a poor job, normally we would fire you for that, but it may not be your fault, so if you allow us to make sure of that (by monitoring), we will try to find another solution".

An interesting parallel to ankle bracelets (also mentioned in the article). As a form of punishment, it's the justice system's way of saying, "you're doing a very poor job as a citizen, but we don't think it would be fair to put you in prison for it, so if you allow us, we'll impose some lesser restrictions and monitor your adherence, to make it easier for you to improve your behavior".

No country on the planet forces everyone to wear ankle bracelets by default.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#100

Post by dvdkhlng » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 11:10 AM UTC

leethargo wrote: post #46

martin_a wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the DHL app really necessary or can you fallback to SMS? Got an Android, so no problem for me, but I'm wondering...

It wasn't necessary as of some months ago. I don't have a smart phone and at first they would send a SMS with TAN, but now they switched to sending an email with the TAN.

There may be some grandfathering of old accounts: accounts that have email notification enabled, can still access the Packstation using mTAN transmitted by email. However, once the email notification is disabled, there seems to be no way to re-enable it (and maybe it is disabled per default for new accounts) [1]

[1] https://www.giga.de/tipp/dhl-mtan-anfordern-ohne-handy-das-s...