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Arabian Nights

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Re: Arabian Nights

#91

Post by heistus »

somethingtoday wrote: post #54
Iv wrote: post #32

Always fun to remind people that Aladdin is actually Chinese in the original stories. But then, let's be fair, their depiction of China sounds like it was just a placeholder for "far away land"

Even to this day, the word China in Arabic (pronounced "seen") means far away. So if your friend lives across town and you are inconvenienced, in Arabic you would say "why do you live in China?".

The word "china" might mean 'far' but only in a metaphorical way As is the case in many other languages. But the word for "far" or "far away" in arabic is definitely not "china / الصين"

Re: Arabian Nights

#92

Post by devindotcom »

idlewords wrote: post #81
JKCalhoun wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I have made it through only a third or so of the Mathers' translation (translated to English from the French translation). I started the Burton translation but found the wording - dense? It seemed it should be more authentic though since it was a direct English translation. Burton, as I have glimpsed, was quite a character.

Burton translated into a fantastical, archaicized, almost unreadable version of English of his own invention. The Haddaway introduction has some nice examples of his prose compared to a "straight" translation of the original text.

I find Burton's translation incredible - though certainly it is also fantastical and archaicized. For a first reader I think it might be a bit daunting, but honestly I love it.

Like any ancient work, it's worth hopping between a few translations over the years depending on what you're currently into. I've got a shelf full of Iliads and Odysseys because I can't decide which I like best.

Re: Arabian Nights

#93

Post by eternalban »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #84
eternalban wrote: post #56

This little bit of cultural misappropriation has always bugged me. Oddly enough, it is always the Europeans insisting on these Persian/Iranian matters being "Arab". I seriously wonder if this is still nursing ancient Persian Greek/Roman rivalries and is a byproduct of a chauvinist classical education of the European educated set of 19th century. I find it very strange. In the OP, we have a female Persian name (Shahrz…

The version of these tales that became internationally famous date from a time after Persia had already been under Arabic and Muslim influence for centuries and the Persian language had become replete with Arabic borrowings. It is the same reason that many of the traditions and foreign words borrowed into the cultures of Central Asia and the Volga–Kama region are generally referred to as "Arabo-Persian", even though…

As I said this is a minor item.

The major one, which one sees to this day in contemporary European sources (even scholarly matter), is how Arabs translated ancient sources into Arabic. This occulation of (substantial and far reaching) contribution of Iran to "Western civilization" is unique to European sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Clas...

Arab historians themselves, to their lasting credit, had the intellectual integrity:

“It is a remarkable fact that, with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars…in the intellectual sciences have been non-Arabs…thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent…they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar…great jurists were Persians… only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, ‘If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it”…The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture.”

- Muqaddimah, by Abū Zayd ‘Abd ar-Raḥmān ibn Muḥammad ibn Khaldūn al-Ḥaḍramī, translated by F. Rosenthal (III, pp. 311-15, 271-4 [Arabic]; Frye, R.N. (1977). Golden Age of Persia, London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, p.91).

Soviet Russian historians are equally factual regarding these matters. As I said, this is a remarkable feature of European version of history as far as Iran is concerned.

Re: Arabian Nights

#94

Post by sorenso »

Perhaps one of the greatest Arabic, Middle Eastern, and Islamic contributions to world literature, the many stories of the Arabian Nights, in their various forms and genres, have influenced literature, music, art, and cinema, and continue to do so until our present day.

Re: Arabian Nights

#95

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

eternalban wrote: post #93
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The version of these tales that became internationally famous date from a time after Persia had already been under Arabic and Muslim influence for centuries and the Persian language had become replete with Arabic borrowings. It is the same reason that many of the traditions and foreign words borrowed into the cultures of Central Asia and the Volga–Kama region are generally referred to as "Arabo-Persian", even though…

As I said this is a minor item. The major one, which one sees to this day in contemporary European sources (even scholarly matter), is how Arabs translated ancient sources into Arabic. This occulation of (substantial and far reaching) contribution of Iran to "Western civilization" is unique to European sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Clas... Arab historians themselves, to their lastin…

> Soviet Russian historians are equally factual regarding these matters

It is within the Soviet Russian research tradition (after all, most publications on the history of the languages and cultures of Central Asia and the Volga–Kama were produced then, when these regions were within the USSR) that the aforementioned term "Arabo-Persian" is heavily used.

Your posts on this matter make you appear to be one of those Persian nationalists who can’t stop banging on about how Persians aren't Arabs. I think many people here are capable of understanding the nuances involved, and it isn't really appropriate for you to continue to claim victimization.

Re: Arabian Nights

#96

Post by eternalban »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #95
eternalban wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said this is a minor item. The major one, which one sees to this day in contemporary European sources (even scholarly matter), is how Arabs translated ancient sources into Arabic. This occulation of (substantial and far reaching) contribution of Iran to "Western civilization" is unique to European sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Clas... Arab historians themselves, to their lastin…

> Soviet Russian historians are equally factual regarding these matters It is within the Soviet Russian research tradition (after all, most publications on the history of the languages and cultures of Central Asia and the Volga–Kama were produced then, when these regions were within the USSR) that the aforementioned term "Arabo-Persian" is heavily used. Your posts on this matter make you appear to be one of those Per…

> Your posts on this matter make you appear to be one of those Persian nationalists who can’t stop banging on about how Persians aren't Arabs.

Not correct and borderline ad hom. I am a Muslim and do not care for such ethnic distinctions.

Re: Arabian Nights

#97

Post by almostarockstar »

gjm11 wrote: post #87
vixen99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing how the 'almost unreadable' Burton's Thousand Nights continues to sell to this day, even on Kindle. As far as I can gather, there is plenty of sexual imagery in the original manuscript undoubtedly emphasized by Burton. Suggestions of really gross mis-translation or invention by Burton, seem to be thin on the ground.

The trouble with Burton isn't inaccuracy so much as unreadability , or at least clumsiness , because he translated into an idiosyncratic variety of English never used by anyone else before or since. Here's an example from the introduction to Dawood's translation, which I happen to have handy: "But she rejoined by saying, 'Allah upon you both that ye come down forthright, and if you come not, I will rouse upon you my…

I'm fascinated.

It sounds like a pidgin, or literal translation. Can anybody compare the grammar used to that of the original text? Or is it a work of complete imagination?

Re: Arabian Nights

#98

Post by devindotcom »

fmajid wrote: post #36

Jorge Luis Borges wrote an excellent comparison of translations of the Arabian Nights, notably those of Galland, Burton, Lane and Mardrus. His conclusion was the Lane one was most faithful to the original, despite being prudishly bowdlerized, that Mardrus emphasized the sensual aspects to titillate his readers and Burton on the other hand over-emphasized the violence. I've read the Galland, Mardrus and Burton but not…

I did not know this exists. Can't wait to look it up and read it, thanks.

Re: Arabian Nights

#99

Post by devindotcom »

riffraff wrote: post #12

> Many of the well-known modern stories, like that of Aladdin, have the more prurient elements removed or are stories that were added much later. I wonder about the "prurient" bits? Anyone perused this version and can share what this is about? I am quite curious to see if the version I read in my own language also has the same censoring.

If you read the story "The Porter and the Three Ladies of Baghdad" (I think... this is from memory) the women (the escalating beauty of whom as the porter meets each is incredibly phrased by Burton) eventually are fooling around with the porter and they are pointing to each other's crotches and joking about different names: "thy cleft, thy slit, thy coynte, thy clitoris" and the women suggest "the basil of the bridges" (I confess myself mystified) and "the husked sesame seed" (husked due to female circumcision).

Other translations are muuuuuch more tame. Abridged versions probably skip it entirely. When I first read the unexpurgated Burton my mind was blown on the regular.

Re: Arabian Nights

#100

Post by goto11 »

eternalban wrote: post #56

This little bit of cultural misappropriation has always bugged me. Oddly enough, it is always the Europeans insisting on these Persian/Iranian matters being "Arab". I seriously wonder if this is still nursing ancient Persian Greek/Roman rivalries and is a byproduct of a chauvinist classical education of the European educated set of 19th century. I find it very strange. In the OP, we have a female Persian name (Shahrz…

> I seriously wonder if this is still nursing ancient Persian Greek/Roman rivalries and is a byproduct of a chauvinist classical education of the European educated set of 19th century. I find it very strange.

You are overthinking this. It is called Arabian Nights (in some translations) because the stories are translated from Arabic. It is like calling the Brothers Grimm fairy tales German, even though some of the stories may have originated somewhere else.

The 19 century orientalists were certainly chauvinist by modern standards, but did not in particular elevate Arab culture above Persian culture.

Suggesting that Arab culture supplied just one story to the collection makes you the chauvinist. The stories have all kinds of origins - Persian, Indian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Syrian, even European.

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