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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#91
post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

It's Holy Week this week (the week before Easter starts) and every day there is a service in each parish. UK, Roman Catholic churches. You have to book online to reserve a place. A quick look at a few parishes in an area for big and small churches shows that all the services for each day of the week and weekend are booked out in advance.

Obviously the numbers able to fit in the churches are capped because of Coronavirus, but it appears as if there are more people who are wanting to attend than can. What I can say with some confidence is that there is at the very least more demand than the capacity.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#92
post #45

There's a great discourse in one of Dan Brown's books about whether people leave religion because they have found better answers elsewhere, or because they have stopped asking the questions. Separately, I observed that that the areligious are much more likely to have few or no kids while the religious folks put a much greater emphasis on it. As the secular world moves towards a place where there's no pressure to marr…

There was a religious leader making a similar argument some time back, but I don't think it holds together all that well. After all, back in the middle ages the amount of churchgoing people was near 100% and religions were promoting big families then just as much as now. So if religious parents "out-produce" their non-religious counterparts how did we ever get to the current situation where a majority is not religiou…

From basic evolutionary biology, there is no universall "fitness", only situational fitness. In the middle ages, in a world without contraception, with extreme pressures to marriage, without pornography or any other non-intercourse sexual releases, being religious or not matters little in fertility rate. Although in frankness, it still did, that's how rome became christian in the first place, Christians married later (so had higher chances of survival), and treasured their baby girls instead of exposing them to death, small fertility advantages added up expontentially over time.

In the 21st age, the environment has shifted so much against irreligious/low commitment people in terms of reproductive fitness, due to those above factors heavily selecting against them. Literally only religious people, no matter what part of the world you are looking at, are able to maintain above replacement fertility. Irreligious people' population decline, in the long run, at least 25% every generation, will be far faster than they can "convert" religious people. Look at the amish and mormon fertility rates, read decades of research by Eric Kaufmann, and the answer is rather self evident

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#93
As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the same "baby food" and they look to other places. The churches where theology is solid (and clear) tend to be stronger in number and in regular attendance.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#94
post #52

I had a unique experience growing up in a religious family (that is very tolerant and respectful of all world religions) while simultaneously being immersed in Scientology via a private school experience. The thing that underscores all of my experiences has been hypocrisy. So many people just want to belong to a group, or were raised in it and know nothing better. They don’t practice what they preach. I can’t help bu…

>The thing that underscores all of my experiences has been hypocrisy. This is, consistently, what I hear from friends and family as to why they have drifted away from the Catholic church, and is solidly my own reason as well. You see people, day-in-day out being terrible, judgmental, hateful people, except on Sunday when they're in the front row being holier than thou. It grates on you, and leaves a bad taste. It's e…

> This is, consistently, what I hear from friends and family as to why they have drifted away from the Catholic church, and is solidly my own reason as well.

I was raised Catholic and decided, as a teenager, that I didn't want to be Catholic as an adult.

> My theory is that people have always felt that way, but it was harder to nail down these awful people before social media.

IMO, two things:

1: The changes in the 1960s to the English (native language) mass

2: The shift towards conservative politics

Have you been to a latin mass? (The old-style mass that the Church conducted until the 1960s.) It's a very different experience than modern Catholicism, and much more similar to eastern-style worship.

But, more importantly, the latin mass has a lot less preaching. It's a meditation, and then a social gathering afterwards. It's a lot more universal in the sense that you don't really have to explicitly align with the beliefs to still be comfortable with the community. (Edit: As in, if you don't believe in the whole Jesus thing, you can just enjoy the chanting at let your mind drift away.)

But, the thing that really turned me off of the Catholic church was the drift towards conservative politics. I attended a friend's wedding where the church had a massive anti-abortion billboard over their parking lot for the whole town to see. Another time I went to a mass in honor of some deceased family members and there were posters in the church advocating that members vote against marijuana legalization.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#95

I had a unique experience growing up in a religious family (that is very tolerant and respectful of all world religions) while simultaneously being immersed in Scientology via a private school experience. The thing that underscores all of my experiences has been hypocrisy. So many people just want to belong to a group, or were raised in it and know nothing better. They don’t practice what they preach. I can’t help bu…

You went to Delphian? I had a coworker who went there. He had, uh, stories.

Delphi Academy was actually next door. I attended a school called Renaissance. All of the “Applied Scholastics” schools are a joke.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#96

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically…

The same can be said of science in that science can't explain the supernatural or the after-life. Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#97
post #81

Fanny Holmes (wife of Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.) once said, when asked why she belonged to the Unitarian Church, "In Boston one has to be something, and Unitarian is the least you can be." Unitarianism by the 20th century didn't have any dogma, even atheists and agnostics could be members, and accepted that all religious traditions had spiritual wisdom to offer. But because it had evolved from Christianity it had ins…

Superb point. To quote Holmes, ‘Most people are willing to take the Sermon on the Mount as a flag to sail under, but few will use it as a rudder by which to steer.’

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#98
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have chosen new religions and a new elite priesthood, they just have different names.

This avenue of thinking are messing with language. And language is what we organize and coordinate with as human beings. So stop this! Religion is a very precise definition. By which your comment is not only technically wrong but also practically harmful. Definition of the religion according to dictionary is: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods." So no, they…

> And their "priests" do not claim to be shadow of the divine, and certainly do not threaten them with afterlife.

Oh yes, if you look at the peddlers of righteous outrage we have today, and their continuous infighting, there's no difference. Dare to deviate from the line? Wrongthink! Cancelled! Even their own people fall pray to this as they get accused of not being outraged enough by their comrades.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#99

The spread of information has allowed people to form their own moralistic code and spiritual journey that doesn't rely on having an institutional infrastructure. They are choosing religions that reject elite priesthoods, a trend now going back for thousands of years starting with Zarathustra. I consider this progress.

I think there's a rhetoric out there, that "everybody needs a religion," and that identifies any vehemently held ideology or close-knit social group as a religion. It's tautological. This is exacerbated by the difficulty of forming a general definition of "religion" that isn't riddled with exceptions. Defining "religion" broadly enough to include all religions makes it end up including everything else too.

But "your group is a religion too" seems like a combination of confirmation bias and tu quoque fallacy.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#100

Now let's tax churches, like Frank Zappa suggested :)

I am from Brazil... To be honest this would be a complete disaster here.

1. My city main hospital, belongs to Catholic Church, same applies to many other cities.

2. Many of our leading universities, doing research and important work, belong to Catholic Church, notably PUC-RIO, the creators of Lua language.

3. Protestant churches here are the major organizations driving away drug dealers, some took the donations to build better light system in public parks, provide free food, counseling, and so on.

4. We have an hospital considered one of the best of world for certain treatments, to the point people from first world countries sometimes come here for this hospital, and it belongs to a Jewish organization.

And the list goes and goes on... a lot of public infrastructure here belongs to religious organizations, if the government taxed them the result would be the government suddenly needing to spend a ton of their own money replacing what these organizations are doing, and I doubt it would work well, for example the government-owned hospital in my city killed people more than once for stupid reasons (including giving penicilin to a guy that warned them he was allergic!), so the population rely on the catholic hospital instead.

EDIT: reading a sibling comment made me remember another important one: the religious organizations here are major drivers for cultural education, for example our public-owned orchestras are often filled with church-trained people, ditto for audio engineering, theather and many other "art"-related professions.

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