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Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

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Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#91

Post by asabjorn »

cies wrote: post #47

Please make this post link to the freely available open letter/ petition, instead of the pay walled article about it. Also change the title to "Petition to oust RMS from FSF board" https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ It's an impressive list of names, of whom I know a few personally and hold in high regards. At this point I'm VERY curious to how RMS and the folks that requested him to come back to the FSF have to say i…

> I'm not fully aware of what he did, and to what extend he hold on to being a "misogynist, ableist, and transphobic, among other serious accusations of impropriety". Hence I look fwd to a defense.

The accusation uses political activist wording that most of us are familiar with at this point, indicating that woke activism of the signatories and the organizations they work for have at least had some influence. Do you think an expectation of a response should be tempered by this concern about political activism of the accusers?

Socially extremely competent innocent people regularly fail in defending themselves, or get cancelled even after proven innocent. Asking a borderline autistic person like RMS to defend himself while navigating the complex woke activism in the accusation seems like a big ask.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#92

Post by orra »

endisneigh wrote: post #68
orra wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman seems to have a history of being manipulative and sexually harassing women. https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... He also has some troubling views that at best make him an inappropriate spokesperson. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix

Yeah I saw that, but I didn’t see anything that he did specifically. It seems he said some things that one might disagree with which is fair enough but saying it’s sexual harassment seems like a stretch IMO.

Did you, uh, read the medium link that I and the appendix linked to? https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...

He threatened suicide if a woman wouldn't date him. That's abusive manipulation.

He, unsolicitedly hands out 'pleasure cards' to women at conferences. That's harassment: Conferences are a interest and professional environment; they're not Tinder.

Having a bed in his office at MIT is creepy as hell. Inviting woman at MIT into his office would hence be harassment.

Women at MIT had to keep plants in their offices to ward him off. Ward off his persistent, unwanted, sexual advances. That's him causing harassment.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#93

Post by geofft »

orra wrote: post #73
tubbyjr wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unbelievable... so autism is now a treatable disease? Is LGBTQ++ also treatable according to you? Your comment is bigotted nonesense across the whole gamut.

> autism is now a treatable disease? I didn't say cure. But there are therapies for autism: therapy, for a start. > Is LGBTQ++ also treatable according to you? That's a crass straw man. Being LGBT+ is not a disorder. Indeed, being trans was recently removed as a disorder from DSM.

Perhaps a better way of putting this is that while autism doesn't need a "cure," being an asshole is absolutely a thing that - if it is indeed caused by a medical condition - a medical professional can help with. (And if it is not caused by a medical condition, then it is simply a character flaw, and should be judged like a willful character flaw and not like a medical condition.)

There are plenty of autistic people who are not assholes and are lovely people. Many of them say they go out of their way to have their rational brain compensate for the level of emotional processing that other people expect out of them, that they specifically worry about being perceived as rude.

The least a leader of an activism organization can do (assuming he does in fact care about the activism) is to figure out when he's alienating people and figure out how to stop, or to step down and let someone else take the leadership role.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#94

Post by gentleman11 »

krapp wrote: post #58
ipnon wrote: post #44

I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman, a man who has never been convicted of a crime, and who in response to the allegations in the open letter has said things such as: "We know that Giuffre was being coerced into sex – by Epstein. She was being harmed," "Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a c…

>I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman Sorry? What chilling effect? People are coming out of the woodwork to defend him. Most of the comments on most threads on Hacker News defend him. I can't think of anyone more vigorously and vociferously defended by the tech community except maybe Aaron Swartz. If there's any chilling effect at all, it's in…

Edit: I don’t want to comment

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#96

Post by complexworld »

complexworld wrote: post #63

Please read this to get another point of view on the calls to ostracize RMS. It has facts, quotes, and givies analysis from Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

I cancelled my monthly contribution to the Mozilla foundation.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#97

Post by orra »

yellowapple wrote: post #88
orra wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ableist nonsense. First, nobody is ostracizing Stallman for being socially awkward. He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Second, neurodiversity and social awkwardness don't excuse you being an asshole, from being a bully, or from being a danger. I think most people, whether neurodiverse or not, understand that. Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Just like with the recent tragic Atlanta shooti…

> He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment. Claiming otherwise does a massive disservice both to neuroatypical people and to actual victims of sexual harassment. > Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Does he need one? This is the US we're talking about; considering h…

> Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment.

Well, sure: if you ignore all the evidence, then put up a straw man, you'll never be able to criticise his harassment.

Again, RMS is being ostracized for sexual harassment, not for being a weirdo.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#98

Post by krapp »

gentleman11 wrote: post #94
krapp wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman Sorry? What chilling effect? People are coming out of the woodwork to defend him. Most of the comments on most threads on Hacker News defend him. I can't think of anyone more vigorously and vociferously defended by the tech community except maybe Aaron Swartz. If there's any chilling effect at all, it's in…

Edit: I don’t want to comment

OK, but we're talking about Free Software culture and whether there's a chilling effect for defending Richard Stallman versus criticizing him. That specifically is the subject of the comment I replied to.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#99

Post by orra »

captaincurrie wrote: post #62
orra wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ableist nonsense. First, nobody is ostracizing Stallman for being socially awkward. He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Second, neurodiversity and social awkwardness don't excuse you being an asshole, from being a bully, or from being a danger. I think most people, whether neurodiverse or not, understand that. Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Just like with the recent tragic Atlanta shooti…

Sexual Harassment can mean anything to these usurpers. What it probably means is a big, fat, ugly nerd tried his hand at flirting. Didn't go so well. A little bit of awkwardness for both parties ensured. End of story. Long Live RS!

> Sexual Harassment can mean anything to these usurpers.

This is a complete strawman. Sexual harassment is well defined. It would be unwanted and, especially, persistent sexual attention.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#100

Post by yellowapple »

geofft wrote: post #93
orra wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> autism is now a treatable disease? I didn't say cure. But there are therapies for autism: therapy, for a start. > Is LGBTQ++ also treatable according to you? That's a crass straw man. Being LGBT+ is not a disorder. Indeed, being trans was recently removed as a disorder from DSM.

Perhaps a better way of putting this is that while autism doesn't need a "cure," being an asshole is absolutely a thing that - if it is indeed caused by a medical condition - a medical professional can help with. (And if it is not caused by a medical condition, then it is simply a character flaw, and should be judged like a willful character flaw and not like a medical condition.) There are plenty of autistic people…

> The least a leader of an activism organization can do (assuming he does in fact care about the activism) is to figure out when he's alienating people and figure out how to stop, or to step down and let someone else take the leadership role.

Which he did, and pretty quickly at that. And then the FSF evidently wanted him to return, hence his reappointment to the Board of Directors.

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