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Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

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Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#91

Post by Clewza313 »

kazinator wrote: post #79

OMG, I read 藩, cold: "han" feudal domain. I did stare at it for a second or three, but got it. I added it to my vocabulary maybe a year-and-a-half ago? It, and words that include it, are not such common words. How/why did he choose that for the example, I wonder. For that matter, how did I add it? It was due to some recursive chasing of words in a dictionary, where some word's older meaning was being explained as rel…

I suspect the author meant to use 漢 (as in hanzi/kanji), and keyed in the wrong one instead.

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#92

Post by Clewza313 »

kazinator wrote: post #85
euske wrote: post #13

What's amazing about hentai-kana (hentai as "alternative form", not pervert) is that governments and town registrars still allow using them as an official name in their electronic registry. I recently got a copy of my family register, and found out that my grandma's name was officially in hentai kana. Apparently they made special fonts for each unique character, but I don't know how they're encoded on their database.…

I practice rote memorization of some 340+ hentaigana with Anki. It is completely brutal. I reviewed this one 384 times already: https://www.benricho.org/kana/kana-img/f4f6.gif The lapses are just crazy. My second most reviewed, at 374 times, is https://www.benricho.org/kana/kana-img/f465.gif Third, at 306 times, https://www.benricho.org/kana/kana-img/f4b7.gif

Dare I ask why? They're thoroughly useless unless you regularly read pre-1900 literature in the original.

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#93

Post by anthk »

Clewza313 wrote: post #52
Jonnax wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be argued that Chinese has a lot more characters to learn if you're including the Nanori (Readings used in Names) for 生. If you take a language like English, it's still arguable that you'd need 12 years worth of schooling to do an advanced test. Kanji Kentei seems to ask esoteric things at level 2. So it's a test of fluency of not only the Kanji but the language. How would an English learner fare with Shakes…

The Kanji Kentei is not a language test, but specifically a test about kanji, and the fact that you need to be familiar with Chinese poetry etc to ace it showcases how complex the writing system is. About the closest English gets is asking obscure loanwords in spelling bees.

So like reading the original unadapted Don Quixote in Spanish. Not bad as Shakespeare, but some words had a different meaning back in the day, with inusual metaphors impossible to know unless you were an expert on Middle Ages.

For example, "La negra" would mean "the sword", and "duelos y quebrantos" wouldn't mean "mournings and breakdowns", but some kind of dish made by mixing scrambled eggs, chorizo and bacon.

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#94

Post by anthk »

earthboundkid wrote: post #76
WildParser wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When learning a bit of Japanese to me it was quite obvious that the script was most likely intentionally left (or made) complicated. By using a normal alphabet that actually fits to the structure of Japanese language it would be just another ordinary language to learn. Using a syllables-script for an ending grammar just doesn't make sense. Using 2 syllable scripts is just strange. It most likely helped the leaders th…

WE USE THREE SYLLABLE SCRIPTS ALL THE TIME IN ENGLISH. lowercase and uppercase are two divergent evolutions of the roman alphabet that got shoved together for no particular reason. 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘢 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘳𝘥 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘥𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘢𝘭𝘱𝘩𝘢𝘣𝘦𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘦𝘳𝘨𝘦𝘥 𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘰𝘰. 𝕬𝖙 𝖑𝖊𝖆𝖘𝖙 𝖜𝖊 𝖉𝖔𝖓'𝖙 𝖚𝖘𝖊 𝕭𝖑𝖆𝖈𝖐𝖑𝖊𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗 𝖆𝖓𝖞𝖒𝖔𝖗𝖊.

False. Uppercase and lowercase are spelt identically, so do the italics.

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#95

Post by [deleted] »

Clewza313 wrote: post #91
kazinator wrote: post #79

OMG, I read 藩, cold: "han" feudal domain. I did stare at it for a second or three, but got it. I added it to my vocabulary maybe a year-and-a-half ago? It, and words that include it, are not such common words. How/why did he choose that for the example, I wonder. For that matter, how did I add it? It was due to some recursive chasing of words in a dictionary, where some word's older meaning was being explained as rel…

I suspect the author meant to use 漢 (as in hanzi/kanji), and keyed in the wrong one instead.

[deleted]

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#96

Post by hocuspocus »

andrewzah wrote: post #83
ekianjo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as sinograms are used at least in Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Vietnam While technically a true statement, the usage of kanji in Korea and Vietnam is now fairly limited - Korea uses typically a system based on combining sounds together nowadays (while you still see them use Kanji for names or titles here and there) and Vietnam has moved to (an accent-rich) alphabet during the French colonization .

Korean doesn't use kanji. It uses hanja. While Korean uses a syllabary just like English, the sino-Korean words still have the underlying hanja. If you look up those words in the dictionary, it will show the hanja. [0] From my understanding there are several usages of hanja to this day: - Korean names. For the most part, given names will have hanja chosen by the parents/grandparents/family. However recently it's beco…

> - Korean names. Unless they're into trendy foreign names, both the given name and surname will have hanja chosen.

Not necessarily true anymore. My wife has a completely made up given name that has nothing foreign: just two plain hangul characters without meaning on their own.

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#97

Post by earthboundkid »

anthk wrote: post #94
earthboundkid wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WE USE THREE SYLLABLE SCRIPTS ALL THE TIME IN ENGLISH. lowercase and uppercase are two divergent evolutions of the roman alphabet that got shoved together for no particular reason. 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘢 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘳𝘥 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘥𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘢𝘭𝘱𝘩𝘢𝘣𝘦𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘦𝘳𝘨𝘦𝘥 𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘰𝘰. 𝕬𝖙 𝖑𝖊𝖆𝖘𝖙 𝖜𝖊 𝖉𝖔𝖓'𝖙 𝖚𝖘𝖊 𝕭𝖑𝖆𝖈𝖐𝖑𝖊𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗 𝖆𝖓𝖞𝖒𝖔𝖗𝖊.

False. Uppercase and lowercase are spelt identically, so do the italics.

LOL. You've been reading Roman letters for so long you've forgotten that A and a don't look even remotely alike.

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#98

Post by kazinator »

mcc1ane wrote: post #35
tkgally wrote: post #30

A bit off topic: I happened to talk with an editor at a large Japanese publishing company a few hours ago and the marketability of audiobooks came up. While audio versions of Japanese fiction and nonfiction books are produced and sold, he said the business has never really taken off and his own company isn’t interested in it anymore. This contrasts with what seems to be a healthy and growing audiobook market in Engli…

Japanese-speaking people have trouble understanding each other?

Yes, they absolutely do. You have to see it to believe it.

The language is full of homonyms, for instance.

Misunderstandings occur and then there is a back and forth along the pattern of "No, I don't mean the GENSHI (原子, atom) of GENBAKU (原爆, atom bomb). I mean GENSHI (原資, capital) as in SHIKIN (資金, funds). Okane no koto (having to do with money)." "Aaa... naruhodo".

They also often cannot read the names of people and places. It is simply not possible. If you don't know, the best you can do is form several plausible hypotheses, all of which could be incorrect due to some semi-arbitrary assignment.

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#99

Post by kergonath »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #63
DocTomoe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some additional information: France is actually a leading country when it comes to Japanese Studies, to the point where high-level knowledge of French is a relevant skill in pursuing Japanese studies elsewhere, as many papers were historically only available in French.

I studies Japanese a bit in France a long time ago and was told that spoken French includes all the sounds of spoken Japanese so that a French speaker should have no problem pronouncing Japanese, apart from the accent. This is in contrast to the endless trouble French speakers have with the English 'th'...

Japanese prononciation is not difficult for native French speakers. Off the top of my head, the main “difficulties” are the /r/ and the /h/ (which is always silent in French). That said, I am not sure it is much more difficult for native English speakers.

Re: Japanese typography: Kilograms of sinograms

#100

Post by WildParser »

earthboundkid wrote: post #76
WildParser wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When learning a bit of Japanese to me it was quite obvious that the script was most likely intentionally left (or made) complicated. By using a normal alphabet that actually fits to the structure of Japanese language it would be just another ordinary language to learn. Using a syllables-script for an ending grammar just doesn't make sense. Using 2 syllable scripts is just strange. It most likely helped the leaders th…

WE USE THREE SYLLABLE SCRIPTS ALL THE TIME IN ENGLISH. lowercase and uppercase are two divergent evolutions of the roman alphabet that got shoved together for no particular reason. 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘢 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘳𝘥 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘥𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘢𝘭𝘱𝘩𝘢𝘣𝘦𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘦𝘳𝘨𝘦𝘥 𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘰𝘰. 𝕬𝖙 𝖑𝖊𝖆𝖘𝖙 𝖜𝖊 𝖉𝖔𝖓'𝖙 𝖚𝖘𝖊 𝕭𝖑𝖆𝖈𝖐𝖑𝖊𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗 𝖆𝖓𝖞𝖒𝖔𝖗𝖊.

Are you an Engul user? Syllabic scripts for English are rare. Usually people use letters.
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