Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution' • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#91

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

sjwest wrote: post #80

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

Its unfortunate they felt the need to stop the administration of this vaccine, as this will only further slow down vaccine distribution in Germany/Europe. I think you've got it spot on there - it stinks of politically motivated attack, but I'm not clear how this could benefit Germany's politicians slowing down the administration of the vaccine? Maybe they can use this as an excuse for the poor administration rates???…

A bunch of friends of mine have spent a couple of days pretty whacked by it. Tiredness and a few headaches mostly.

Make sure to get plenty of water and rest :)

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#92

Post by throwaway0a5e » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

subltemelt wrote: post #85

drcode wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

It's interesting because I feel the opposite as an acute care doctor in the US. If I give a medication, or get a scan, or whatever, and the patient has an adverse reaction, it's the medication/scan's fault. If I don't give the medication, don't get the scan, and something bad happens, it's my fault. At least that's how people see it for now. Leads to a lot of over-treatment and extra unnecessary testing in my opinion…

Exactly. You care if people die on your lawn. So you give out medication, do scans, etc. so that if people die they do it on someone else's lawn. It's ass-covering all the way down.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#93

Post by signal11 » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #28

jonplackett wrote: post #5

Maybe AZ should have charged €3 per shot instead of €2 and spent the extra € on a PR agency. They just seem to be constantly taking a hammering in the press, unfairly I’d say.

To be fair, I think the contract between AZ and Oxford University actually restricts them from making a profit for a period of N months/years. So they are only technically allowed to adjust the price to take into account the different operational costs depending on the manufacturing site.

I believe AZ have said they will not profit off the vaccine until the pandemic ends. The interesting thing is that they may get to decide when that happens.[1]

[1] https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/astrazeneca-puts-a-time-...

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#94

Post by drcode » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

subltemelt wrote: post #85

drcode wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

It's interesting because I feel the opposite as an acute care doctor in the US. If I give a medication, or get a scan, or whatever, and the patient has an adverse reaction, it's the medication/scan's fault. If I don't give the medication, don't get the scan, and something bad happens, it's my fault. At least that's how people see it for now. Leads to a lot of over-treatment and extra unnecessary testing in my opinion…

What you say makes complete sense, I'd argue the incentives are different for government agencies, however.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#95

Post by totalZero » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

calhoun137 wrote: post #39

Since these vaccines got emergency use authorization, that means they did not follow the standard procedure for clinical trials. Therefore, precautionary measures which respond dynamically to trends detected in newly available data, is the logical, ethical, and scientifically correct thing to do, imo.

The foundational weakness in what you're saying is that politicians tend to make decisions based on sentiment, rather than basing their actions on data.

I'm not saying the conclusion is incorrect, but it's driven by fear, uncertainty, and doubt -- not quite the same as a clear evidentiary basis.

That could be acceptable if the logic goes that AZN bears the burden of proving that every potential adverse side effect is extremely rare. However, by that logic the vaccinations will be paused several times and more people will suffer due to COVID.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#96

Post by high_derivative » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

mns wrote: post #82

hef19898 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and I rightly so if you ask me. AZ seems so to get all the heat in the press. I really wonder why, but as soon as you start looking at the numbers, there never seems to be something to it. First it was efficiany with elderly in the study, were the numbers were totally misunderstood. Then it was overall effectiveness, then prevention of severe cases. The list goes on. In the meanwhile, the press is reporting eve…

So we've been in a 5 month lockdown already in Germany, all of it to stop the spread of the virus with huge costs to the country, and now the comment that I replied to is saying that "I think this is part of political cover for the failing". Meaning that Germany and the EU, which have been doing everything that they can to stop this, are now somehow involved in a political cover to get some sort of revenge on the UK/…

But they did not do everything they can. They did not expedite AZ vaccine approval, they are messing up the rollout, they tried to negotiate prices instead of securing vaccines at all costs. They made a whole theatre about AZ deliveries and almost created an international crisis around Ireland..but no, no political aspect to it, none at all..

I don't think they are trying to get revenge. They are trying to cover for their own failings. By any reasonable means, the vaccine rollout in continental Europe in relation to the wealth and logistics available compared to US/UK is a complete failure.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#97

Post by nerbert » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #88

bananaowl wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to these reports hosted on gov.uk there are reports of fatalities and reactions. Pfizer: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... AstraZeneca: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Disclaimer from UK.gov: Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side…

1 fatal case of Immune thrombocytopenia for AstraZeneca 1 of Thrombocytopenia for Pfizer Slightly different reporting periods but I'm pretty happy with the odds and I'd take either if offered.

Much better odds than covid anyway.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#98

Post by chrisseaton » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

fab1an wrote: post #89

johnnycerberus wrote: post #29

Judging by what the German press is writing nowadays about their politicans, especially the populists (and the unionists also) that are increasingly frustrated on the incapability of Germany (and the EU altogether) to handle the COVID situation and deliver a homemade vaccine, without the help of the USA and UK, it doesn't surprise me. It could be politically.

Germany has a "homemade" vaccine (BioNTech), in fact it was the first reliable vaccine on the market, and pioneering an entirely new medical paradigm at it, but the EC botched the process of acquiring it.

How can you botch acquiring something being developed and made in own country?

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#99

Post by Sol- » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #84

5cents wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rates at population levels are not enough. These are rare cases and, at least partially, in groups of people who shouldn't get that ill and suddenly die

Last week, Lothar Wieler, head of Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for Infectious Diseases, said there was no evidence that patients who received the vaccine were more likely than patients of a similar age group to suffer blood conditions. Is that guy wrong or basing the statement on outdated information?

Might be outdated, since he talks about clotting generally but the agency in charge of halting the vaccinations mentions a specific rare complication today [1]:

> accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in connection with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca.

Perhaps really just a bad batch somehow if this particular complication wasn't observed in the UK.

[1] https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-infor...

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#100

Post by xgb84j » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

The ethical issue is that the people dying from COVID and the people who might have an adverse reaction from the vaccination are not the same people.

If mostly old people die from COVID but the adverse reaction of the vaccine is independent of age, then for very young people the risk of an adverse reaction of the vaccination might outweigh the risk of permanent damage from COVID.