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Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

digiconomist.net

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Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#91

Post by xiphias2 »

tracedddd wrote: post #72

It’s getting old seeing the same posts with no new data or analysis day after day. I get that people feel this is important, or perhaps are excited to share something wrong with Bitcoin, but I’d be surprised if 99% of the regular visitors to this site haven’t heard about Bitcoin’s energy use and perhaps heard some counterarguments already several times. It really does seem like a grudge more than a genuine care. For…

I felt the same way as well, but you know what they say: all publicity is good publicity. If you parrot the same thing over and over, some people may get interested, why other people are so angry....it's because they are nocoiners.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#92

Post by rspeele »

Guzba wrote: post #34
hudon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VISA alone processes over 60,000 transactions per second [0] and only uses a tiny subset of the world's data centers. Bitcoin processes a whooping 7 transactions per second and consumes as much energy as *all data centers globally*. I'm curious to hear what dumb use of energy you have in your head that rivals this level of stupidity. edit: I'll address the "apple to oranges" replies here: you can combine the energy c…

This conversation never goes anywhere because it's apples and oranges. VISA connects other intermediaries. It isn't actually transferring money, its basically getting two parties to agree to a transfer with a huge pile of terms and fees. It's just not the same thing.

I mean, you could just as well say Bitcoin isn't actually transferring money, it's just changing whose private keys are able to move a token around. If you define "money" as something you can pay your rent, taxes, and grocery expenses with, Coinbase and the exchanges are the ones that really settle that into money.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#93

Post by gruez »

flerchin wrote: post #75

How much electricity should miners waste to get a single bitcoin. Obviously up to the expected price of return. Ergo high BTC prices waste more energy. Bitcoin is designed to be deflationary, so....

The deflationary bit (emission rate halving every 4 years) is also responsible for mining revenues dropping, meaning less money to be spent on electricity.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#94

Post by xiphias2 »

tracedddd wrote: post #83
shitloadofbooks wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is because it IS a tech site. Members here understand that Bitcoin is a vastly inefficient and ineffective way to achieve the end goal. My view is definitely that Bitcoin solves a problem I don't have, in just about the worst way possible (proof of work).

This place was flooded with extremely biased nocoiners long before energy consumption was a hot topic. I truly believe it’s simply that they want it to fail since they missed the boat, and their ego is on the line as a forward thinking, “ahead of the curve” technologist. It can’t be the biggest development of the last decade, what would that say about them? Therefore, inefficient ponzi that’s only used for drugs!

It wasn't this bad in early 2013 when the price of BTC was $70. Actually pg's comments here persuaded me to buy a lot of Bitcoin (with a few other influential people, like Chamath Palihapatiya and Max Keiser, and the Cyprus bail in). Usually I missed all the good early startup investments, as I'm not an American, so Bitcoin was the first exciting thing that I had the ability to invest in early.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#95

Post by hudon »

doggosphere wrote: post #57
hudon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VISA alone processes over 60,000 transactions per second [0] and only uses a tiny subset of the world's data centers. Bitcoin processes a whooping 7 transactions per second and consumes as much energy as *all data centers globally*. I'm curious to hear what dumb use of energy you have in your head that rivals this level of stupidity. edit: I'll address the "apple to oranges" replies here: you can combine the energy c…

Is VISA an asset that protects against hyperinflation, is it permissionless to participate in, is it censorship resistant, is it pseudonymous? You're comparing your bicycle to a cargo ship saying "see how much more energy efficient my bicycle is?". Meanwhile your bicycle can't tow 1000 tonnes of freight across the ocean. That's why is moot to compare them.

Bitcoin is no longer censorship resistant. From the US Government alone being able to track and prosecute domestic and international criminals using Bitcoin such as Ross Ulbricht [0] or the BTC-e founder [1], to censoring bitcoin addresses [2] , and there being a trend of the centralized Bitcoin miners complying with such orders [3]; that ship sailed a few years ago. "Users" today transacting on the Bitcoin network are implicitly asking permission from Uncle Sam with every transaction they make, since un-authorized use of Bitcoin has become so easy to prosecute.

[0] https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/04/world/americas/silk-road-ross...

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/29/16060344/btce-bitcoin-exc...

[2] https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm556

[3] https://cointelegraph.com/news/slippery-slope-as-new-bitcoin...

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#96

Post by kelp »

tracedddd wrote: post #83
shitloadofbooks wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is because it IS a tech site. Members here understand that Bitcoin is a vastly inefficient and ineffective way to achieve the end goal. My view is definitely that Bitcoin solves a problem I don't have, in just about the worst way possible (proof of work).

This place was flooded with extremely biased nocoiners long before energy consumption was a hot topic. I truly believe it’s simply that they want it to fail since they missed the boat, and their ego is on the line as a forward thinking, “ahead of the curve” technologist. It can’t be the biggest development of the last decade, what would that say about them? Therefore, inefficient ponzi that’s only used for drugs!

I was on the boat in 2010. I got off it early when I decided the whole thing was a speculative bubble.

I don't really have a lot of regrets about that though. I have more regrets about selling other things too early, like stock positions I once owned.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#97

Post by lottin »

dvh1990 wrote: post #78
shitloadofbooks wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is because it IS a tech site. Members here understand that Bitcoin is a vastly inefficient and ineffective way to achieve the end goal. My view is definitely that Bitcoin solves a problem I don't have, in just about the worst way possible (proof of work).

Of course you don't have the problem because your government is currently not oppressing you and nobody is targeting you. But if that were to change I believe you'll start appreciating Bitcoin more.

The idea that some made-up money that only exists on the internet is some kind of weapon against oppressive governments is so out of touch with reality, that it's incomprehensible how somebody can actually believe that.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#98

Post by verdverm »

gruez wrote: post #51
verdverm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe society is tuning in to the problem more. My parents mentioned it. If they are going to ban ICE vehicles, crypto mining is worth considering for the same fate, especially when energy efficient alternatives exist

The equivalent to banning bitcoin mining would be banning personal vehicles, or banning pickup trucks/SUVs. Banning ICE vehicles would be closer to banning the use of fossil fuels for bitcoin mining.

It's about significant contributors to climate change. If BTC contributes disproportionately, then there will be a call to ban its mining. It's already happening (see China and St Lawrence County, where locals were unhappy that BTC miners drove up their electricity bills)

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#99

Post by jcranmer »

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 wrote: post #6

How much energy do the following consume in total: - mining metal for coins of fiat currency - mining gold because people don't trust fiat (digging otherwise useless-in-that-quantity rocks out of the earth, a Proof of... hmm... WORK?) - running stock exchanges because people don't trust gold either (tungsten has almost the same density) - smelting the plain metal and gold - the US military which backs the dollar, and…

The US Mint appears to use about 250 billion BTUs of energy a year, or about 73 GWh. I can't quickly find numbers for the Bureau of Engraving & Printing, but I suspect it's in the same ballpark.

That puts it at about 0.1% the energy usage of Bitcoin. Now compare how much transaction volume Bitcoin supports versus that of USD cash currency.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#100

Post by rspeele »

inshadows wrote: post #32
Daishiman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no comment about BTC difficulty. It's a comment about the pernicious impact of BTC on the world with practically no benefit to show for it.

Yeah, and the truth is Bitcoin doesn't have negative impact on the world. Miners do.

This is kind of like the old joke that falling from a great height is perfectly safe, it's only landing that's dangerous.
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