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“User engagement” is code for “addiction”

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Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#91

Post by robterrell »

reaperducer wrote: post #36
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see I have my home router configured to not allow any social media-capable devices to connect on Sundays. After a few weeks, the FOMO cycle is broken and you realize that there's more to life than scrolling.

Can you share your blocklist, please?

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#92

Post by hinkley »

CivBase wrote: post #10

If a service is monetized with ads, then the user is the product. We say that a lot but I think a lot of people still don't understand it, especially outside the tech sphere. "Engagement" isn't about building a better service; it's about serving more ads. "Driving user engagement" should be seen as synonymous with "psychologically manipulating users to use the service so they see ads".

If George Carlin were alive we’d have 3+ hours of material on this topic from him.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#93

Post by throwaway1525 »

roughly wrote: post #81

I feel like there's basically two business models in the world - you can be a baker, in which you try to create a product that customers will want on its merits, and work to make the best possible customer experience, or you can be a crack dealer. I think a lot of people think they're bakers, but you gotta realize, the moment you start sprinkling crack in the cookies, you're not selling cookies anymore.

Can you give few examples "baker" products which have scaled to really large scale? I always see it as everybody starts as a baker but over time it becomes a sliding scale.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#94

Post by mgraczyk »

panic wrote: post #85
mgraczyk wrote: post #69

Posts like this completely misunderstand how companies like Facebook think and operate. As a result, they cause people to fight boogymen instead of working toward positive change. Yes, using Facebook instead of doing something like talking in person or reading a book is probably worse for you in the long run. But most people don't do those things instead of Facebook. Instead they use Tiktok. Or watch TV. Or read Teen…

Facebook employees want you to be a happy, healthy Facebook Family of Apps™ user. But Facebook as an emergent entity of its own has "wants" which can be hard to see from the inside. Facebook employees don't actually know what happens between each individual user and their Facebook account. You can do user studies, or gather aggregate metrics, but any technique you might use will obscure what's really happening in one…

Thanks for the reply.

It's true that Facebook the company is an emergent entity, and that the companies behavior and "wants" don't necessarily match those of its employees.

I disagree with the claim that "any technique you might use will obscure what's really happening in one way or another."

RCTs that measure self-reported wellbeing and other engagement-independent measures of mental health do not obscure what's really happening. Techniques like this could be used to actively improve user health, even at a cost to engagement.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#95

Post by C19is20 »

reaperducer wrote: post #38
bosswipe wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then look at all the mental health problems young people are having these days Is there any evidence that mental health is worse than for previous generations?

Is there any evidence that mental health is worse than for previous generations? I don't think so. But people do seem more fragile these days. Still, even if it isn't worse, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something about it.

Couldn't' 'seeming more fragile these days' be a part of copycatting, in that if person X got offended by something, then these addicted-to-social media-types copy the behaviour...and then some?

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#96

Post by _greim_ »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see

To this list I'd add the concept of epistemic hygiene. Just as crowding together in metropolises re-wired our culture to value hygiene, these informational metropolises of social media will eventually cause us to greatly value epistemic hygiene. Seeing a rage-inducing headline would then evoke a kind of "ew..." response. At least, this is what I hope will happen. Maybe it will require a generational turnover.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#97

Post by ummonk »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

I'm not sure empowering users in this way would be all that effective. It would be like trying to empower people to avoid opioid addiction. It's hard to set and stick to limits on something that is designed to addict you.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#98

Post by roughly »

carabiner wrote: post #90
roughly wrote: post #81

I feel like there's basically two business models in the world - you can be a baker, in which you try to create a product that customers will want on its merits, and work to make the best possible customer experience, or you can be a crack dealer. I think a lot of people think they're bakers, but you gotta realize, the moment you start sprinkling crack in the cookies, you're not selling cookies anymore.

Two business models in tech: selling a product vs. selling ads. The latter is really selling your users.

right, baker and crack dealer.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#99

Post by Barrin92 »

loveistheanswer wrote: post #72
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

>I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education Not at all; its more like breaking up with a toxic, manipulative, dishonest partner. There's many more fish in the sea and there's many more ways to heathily socialize than just Facebook. Though I suppose people in abusive relationships often have a sort of Stockholm syndrome where they see no alternatives.

not only do people in abusive relationships often have stockholm syndrome, many people are actually materially dependent on their partner, for example women who have stayed home a long time historically but also still today, and thus they literally cannot leave. Or they have children, or leaving might put others at risk.

Point of working through the analogy being, even on an individual basis framing leaving a relationship as some sort of arbitrary choice is kind of nonsensical, in particular if there is a power imbalance between the people in the relationship, to the point where staying in an abusive relationship might be a 'rational choice'.

Which is actually why we've created very elaborate laws and customs surrounding marriage rather than telling everyone "well if you don't like it just leave".

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#100

Post by PontifexMinimus »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> battling this problem is going to require more than simply shaming them in Medium posts. We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions, and that they can take steps to reduce their social media usage to healthy levels.

Yes, but that's only going to have a small effect, at best. Just like you can't solve the obesity crisis by telling people to eat less.

Things are getting more addictive (http://www.paulgraham.com/addiction.html) because companies under technology and capitalism form weak superintelligencies that are capable of building things that are increasingly addictive. So asking people to use willpower to overcome that is going to increasingly fail.

I think the only thing that could succeed is government intervention.

> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!"

If FB and other social media providers were required to federate using ActivityPub, then people would be able to delete FB and still have access to their friends and contacts on it.

> We also need to encourage people to take control of their feeds, muting users and topics who draw them into unproductive discussions.

With ActivityPub it would be a lot easier to build applications that allow them to control and curate their feeds for themselves. The user is back in control.

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