Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#91

Post by childintime » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 1:08 PM UTC

raister wrote: post #66

Brazilian here: the government will say in TV it's doing its best effort to protect the forest. However, the president is appointing farmers and non-technical people all over those entities trying to protect the forest, and they are slowly giving rights, permits, etc. to deforestation. And sadly, despite this being tracked and advertised by TV or other news entities, very little is done to deter these criminals all o…

> but it's more a 10-country problem > People just assume it's a Brazilian problem

Sadly I must disagree. Take a look at this satellite view: https://www.google.com/maps/@-11.4130559,-63.0321741,1330178...

One can clearly see the typical scars, especially pronounced in Rondônia. Note how deforestation suddenly stops at the borders. Now drag to see neighboring countries (at the same zoom level). They have nowhere near the problem Brazil has.

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#92

Post by 177tcca » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #70

barbacoa wrote: post #16

This is one of those rare times I agree with facebook. Why is this Facebook's problem? Sounds like Brazil should be enforcing their laws better. Facebook hosts for-sale postings, how reasonable is it for them to vet every post against scams and illegality?

> how reasonable is it for them to vet every post against scams and illegality? You gotta be kidding me. Facebook is a multi-billion dollar corporation. Just make them do it. Their legal departments will figure it out. They'll probably do it even faster than the brazilian authorities too. Google once fed brazilian judges this exact same excuse after being ordered to take down content. They got told to figure out a wa…

> You gotta be kidding me. Facebook is a multi-billion dollar corporation. Just make them do it. Their legal departments will figure it out.

And then there's no site that can ever compete with their ability to do the compliance department bullshit.

That's how the world ended up with two banks. Is this how you really want to play it?

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#93

Post by raister » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

childintime wrote: post #91

raister wrote: post #66

Brazilian here: the government will say in TV it's doing its best effort to protect the forest. However, the president is appointing farmers and non-technical people all over those entities trying to protect the forest, and they are slowly giving rights, permits, etc. to deforestation. And sadly, despite this being tracked and advertised by TV or other news entities, very little is done to deter these criminals all o…

> but it's more a 10-country problem > People just assume it's a Brazilian problem Sadly I must disagree. Take a look at this satellite view: https://www.google.com/maps/@-11.4130559,-63.0321741,1330178... One can clearly see the typical scars, especially pronounced in Rondônia. Note how deforestation suddenly stops at the borders. Now drag to see neighboring countries (at the same zoom level). They have nowhere near…

Well, those are 'tricky' regions. I don't believe that in Rondônia they will say: "what, this tree belongs to Bolívia! don't take it down, please!". It's like a mess in the that 'border'.

When Brazil stops then, and there are no more trees to take down in its side, then it will stop being a Brazilian problem?

Maybe we should act to salvage what remains instead of discussing who's fault it is. Well, as we are discussing, another 100 trees were down.

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#94

Post by childintime » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

tomxor wrote: post #90

childintime wrote: post #86

This article is a bit sensational: it doesn't mention these plots are being sold via any craigslist type of service, not just facebook. I have seen another listing service push back a little against such postings, but given the ample space between the law and illegality, it is hard for them to identify semi-legitimate postings from illegitimate ones. That space exists, because the transfer of property came with exces…

> given the ample space between the law and illegality, it is hard for them to identify semi-legitimate postings from illegitimate ones. Would it be so wrong for such a company to take a moral stance and just say no to sale of any land part of the Amazon forest regardless of local legality?

What I'd really like is for the businesses we work at to get serious about their commitment to the environment (instead of doing token commitments). In particular they could invest or participate in a fund or estate, on our behalf, which would take the forest out of its current status of unclaimed territory. Facebook alone could likely buy a significant chunk of the Amazon.

Instead we'd want it to only point the finger, also on our behalf? I'm sure Facebook would actually love to be required to police and to eventually govern us. It will misconstrue that we wanted it to.

Let's work with each other, not against each other. A cry for more control and repression won't bring a smile to anyone's face.

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#95

Post by EL_Loco » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #63

MattGaiser wrote: post #6

The Brazilian government doesn’t seem to care either.

It's too expensive to enforce the law in the jungle. Also it doesn't bring any profit.

It's expensive, sure, but the money would be there if the government wasn't so innefficient and corrupt.

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#96

Post by EL_Loco » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

I lived in Brazil's capital, Brasília, for many years. Illegal land grabs were very, very common there. This wasn't in the jungle. This was a modern city, and there were as many middle class and upper middle class land grabbers as poor ones. This infuriated me. Since the upper middle class neighborhoods were becoming too expensive to buy into, rich people simply invaded protected land and started building there. Or owners of large farmland transformed the land into urban plots and sold the plots illegally, mostly to rich middle and upper middle class people. And everyone knew it was illegal. Everyone. Still to this day, a decade later, I still know people who have very nice homes in very nice neighborhoods, and they still don't have an official, legal land title. They have some semi-bogus, semi-official 'land use' sort of document, and they can't legalize it, and it is all a complicated legal mess, but hey, they got to buy very cheap land and live the middle class dream, right? Who cares if it was illegal, who cares if it the land was supposed to be preserved. And these are the same people who complain that we have corrupt politicians. Really, these are the same people. Everyone in Brazil blames our problems on corrupt politicians, but everyone pulls this kind of 'semi-legal' crap. That's why Brazil sucks. Too bad it's very, very good also.

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#97

Post by childintime » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

raister wrote: post #93

childintime wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's more a 10-country problem > People just assume it's a Brazilian problem Sadly I must disagree. Take a look at this satellite view: https://www.google.com/maps/@-11.4130559,-63.0321741,1330178... One can clearly see the typical scars, especially pronounced in Rondônia. Note how deforestation suddenly stops at the borders. Now drag to see neighboring countries (at the same zoom level). They have nowhere near…

Well, those are 'tricky' regions. I don't believe that in Rondônia they will say: "what, this tree belongs to Bolívia! don't take it down, please!". It's like a mess in the that 'border'. When Brazil stops then, and there are no more trees to take down in its side, then it will stop being a Brazilian problem? Maybe we should act to salvage what remains instead of discussing who's fault it is. Well, as we are discussi…

> Well, those are 'tricky' regions. I don't believe that in Rondônia they will say: "what, this tree belongs to Bolívia! don't take it down, please!".

Agree. All the more striking that it does obey borders.

> When [Brazil stops then, and] there are no more trees to take down in its side, then it will stop being a Brazilian problem?

So you think it is a problem of the world. Yet you as a brazilian feel dependent on the world to take positive action, and save the Amazon. In a way you are saying that the world must know how to do what Brazil itself does not know how to do.. Which superficially seems like a weird and unacceptable attitude to take: grow up!?

Yet I sort of agree, as I think stakeholders throughout the world should literally take ownership, buy territory and take action to preserve. Only then can they have a conversation and compete with other (purely capitalist) interests. We are those stakeholders, through the companies we work at, and capitalism (as it ravages the Amazon) is ultimately only civilized by competition.

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#98

Post by throwawei369 » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #75

thanhhaimai wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinions are my own. > How many problems would be fixed if we stopped feeling sorry for the rich corporations and started requiring them to assume responsibility for the messes they create? Instead of "problems would be fixed", it would be "how many more problems would be created". - USPS should assume responsibility for scam mails since they help deliver them. Laws would be created to require USPS to "screen" all ma…

Not really. Facebook is not some neutral carrier of information. It's not a packet switched network. It's pretty much an advertising company. How could they not be responsible for the adverts they run? It's actually illegal to tamper with mail or wiretap phones without a warrant. The post office and telecommunications companies can't know what is going on. Same logic applies to networks and it's actually enforced via…

> How could they not be responsible for the adverts they run?

Except Facebook is not a political outfit (though debatable depending on who you ask) but rather, a private business. Anything they do or don't do is determined by their business interests.

Mind you,, if Facebook don't take this advertising money,, pretty sure their competitors in the ad space will be glad to fill that vacuum.

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#99

Post by LanceH » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

MertsA wrote: post #76

LanceH wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the sale of land on Facebook is not legal, then the government shouldn't record the transfer of title.

They don't, this is just random squatters occupying land that isn't theirs. This is basically on par with finding a vacant lot that the owner doesn't check up on and "selling" it while openly admitting that they don't have title to the land and have no rights to the property. What's surprising is that people are foolish enough to pay them anything. They aren't actually buying anything, they could just not give them a…

It's not. And you could offer the Brooklyn Bridge on Facebook. Transactions don't take place on Facebook. If I browse Facebook for a basketball, we meet up and they want to hand me a soccer ball, I don't give them cash. If you're conducting a trade for land/property, you need to go through all the processes normally involved in property transfer -- survey, title insurance, etc...

Facebook marketplace just links buyers and sellers. Settlement is something else.

Why is everyone so intent on Facebook/Twitter/whatever being the arbiter of truth? These problems aren't new to any of the new tech.

Re: Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

#100

Post by raister » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

childintime wrote: post #97

raister wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, those are 'tricky' regions. I don't believe that in Rondônia they will say: "what, this tree belongs to Bolívia! don't take it down, please!". It's like a mess in the that 'border'. When Brazil stops then, and there are no more trees to take down in its side, then it will stop being a Brazilian problem? Maybe we should act to salvage what remains instead of discussing who's fault it is. Well, as we are discussi…

> Well, those are 'tricky' regions. I don't believe that in Rondônia they will say: "what, this tree belongs to Bolívia! don't take it down, please!". Agree. All the more striking that it does obey borders. > When [Brazil stops then, and] there are no more trees to take down in its side, then it will stop being a Brazilian problem? So you think it is a problem of the world. Yet you as a brazilian feel dependent on th…

Brazil does limit land purchase (officially land purchase) by citizens from other countries.

The country could be forced to comply or sanctioned - and that's URGENT.

It won't simply 'grow up' because the President himself was caught on tape saying things like "US and Europe destroyed their forests and became superpowers, now that it's our time (sic), they mingle in our sovereignty on deciding what to do with our own land!". He is vested on destroying it, on allowing deforestation, on putting incompetent people in key positions.