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Griddy Is Shutting Down

griddy.com

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Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#91

Post by stefan_ »

sp332 wrote: post #51
bpodgursky wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are correct. Here's another source: https://thetexan.news/texas-utility-regulator-increased-elec... > “Because energy prices should reflect scarcity of the supply, the market price for the energy needed to serve load being shed in the face of scarcity should also be at its highest,” the PUC’s news release stated. > The PUC added, “The decision was spurred by ERCOT’s discovery that energy prices acro…

I don't blame them for doing whatever it took to attract electricity generation onto the grid. But passing the costs directly to customers seems like the wrong way to handle that side of the transaction. I think the difference should have been paid for as part of the overall relief package.

I think the point is that no price would have made any extra electricity supply available. All this $9000 imaginary price did was provide the remaining generators with an extra $8000/MWh and causing a number of electricity wholesale buyers (far from only Griddy) to default.

It's not like any generator is making money having a power plant sit idle, they are losing tons. Any positive price is incentive enough, but no level of price can make whatever is causing the outage to be fixed in 4 days. The Texas grid is an entirely isolated system.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#92

Post by dragonwriter »

nrmitchi wrote: post #80
dragonwriter wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Griddy no longer exists Griddy is shutting down. They exist for the moment, the debt they are owed is an asset, and even if they are dissolved their assets will be sold off to pay their creditors, so someone will be owed the money.

The customer debt from this can be sold off, but you might be lucky to get a penny-on-the-dollar for it.

Maybe, because it's going to (on average) be hard to collect. But the debt doesn't go away automatically or get reduced, it goes to whoever paid that penny...

(Now, if that's John Oliver [0], maybe it also gets forgiven, but that's not the usual case...)

[0] https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/john-oliver-buys-15...

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#93

Post by gpm »

gruez wrote: post #89
gpm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This being wholesale doesn't somehow make it not price gouging. Raising prices on a product (electricity) that you were already selling during an emergency is widely considered to be highly immoral, and is illegal almost everywhere, including Texas [1]. There does not appear to be any exception for "wholesale" goods, or b2b transactions, nor should there be morally since that would defeat the whole purpose of keeping…

>But certainly setting the price this high was immoral, useless, and just a transfer of money from people buying electricity to the people who were already producing as much electricity as they could at 1/10th the price. Not really, raising the prices also increases supply (eg. hiring workers to work overtime to get it fixed, or renting out expensive equipment to get it fixed faster), as well as discouraging non-esse…

There is a point to which this is true, and there is a point at which this is no longer true because everyone is already doing everything they already can.

Texas was quite obviously well beyond that second point during this crisis.

Moreover that only excuses the people who actually had those extra expenses of charging more. The rest of the producers of electricity are morally (and under normal circumstances legally) obligated to not also raise their prices just because they can.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#94

Post by bigwavedave »

lxe wrote: post #45
Fellshard wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that you're buying straight from the suppliers instead of through the many-tiered energy brokerage that is used down here.

But how is this bad?

As I understand it, there are two ways to purchase electricity in Texas:

1) a fixed rate per kilowatt hour, regardless of what the wholesale cost is. 2) a variable rate per kilowatt hour, which is wholesale cost.

If supply is up and demand is low, wholesale prices drop, so the customer pays less per kWh and ostensibly less per month. In that same vein, if supply is down and demand is high (like when power plants literally freeze and supply from other sources can only trickle in), wholesale prices rise and this increase is passed directly to the consumer.

On the other hand, fixed rate consumers pay the same per kWh regardless of whether the wholesale cost is high or low.

So when prices skyrocket to $9/kWh, wholesale customers are on the hook for it, but fixed rate customers will still be enjoying 10.98[1] cents (yes, that's $00.1098) per kWh because their utility provider has to deal with it.

[1] https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/texas/

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#95

Post by aaomidi »

Robotbeat wrote: post #77

So, a thing I've been thinking of is that... because most people are on constant rate plans (where there isn't any incentive to cut back during a supply and/or demand crunch), the overall grid demand is a lot more inelastic than it would be if everyone where on a Griddy-like service. When, say, 75% of demand is insensitive to price signals, to get the 25% of demand that is sensitive to respond takes a MUCH bigger pri…

oh my lord, what is this thinking.

People have enough shit to be worried about than to worry about their power ticker going up and down. This is not something we should add as a burden to our citizens.

Next I'm going to hear people wanting to short electricity.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#96

Post by gruez »

gpm wrote: post #93
gruez wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But certainly setting the price this high was immoral, useless, and just a transfer of money from people buying electricity to the people who were already producing as much electricity as they could at 1/10th the price. Not really, raising the prices also increases supply (eg. hiring workers to work overtime to get it fixed, or renting out expensive equipment to get it fixed faster), as well as discouraging non-esse…

There is a point to which this is true, and there is a point at which this is no longer true because everyone is already doing everything they already can. Texas was quite obviously well beyond that second point during this crisis. Moreover that only excuses the people who actually had those extra expenses of charging more. The rest of the producers of electricity are morally (and under normal circumstances legally)…

> There is a point to which this is true, and there is a point at which this is no longer true because everyone is already doing everything they already can.

Are they? I'm sure if the electricity rate was high enough it'd be worth it to airlift diesel generators across the country to make up the shortfall. Hell, you can probably fly in temp workers from europe/asia to do the necessary fixes.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#97

Post by gruez »

nrmitchi wrote: post #75
gpm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This being wholesale doesn't somehow make it not price gouging. Raising prices on a product (electricity) that you were already selling during an emergency is widely considered to be highly immoral, and is illegal almost everywhere, including Texas [1]. There does not appear to be any exception for "wholesale" goods, or b2b transactions, nor should there be morally since that would defeat the whole purpose of keeping…

I believe there is an exception to price gouging laws if the cost of producing the direct item/product/service is impacted. In this case Griddy's cost went way up as well, which makes them not-clearly-in-the-wrong. For the power producers on the other hand, it seems exceptionally clear (to me anyways) that this was just state-sponsored price gouging: https://theintercept.com/2021/02/23/texas-winter-storm-gas-p...

>I believe there is an exception to price gouging laws if the cost of producing the direct item/product/service is impacted.

nope.

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/don-t-mess-texas-price-...

>Unlike many state price gouging statutes, [Texas’ Deceptive Trade Practices Act] does not contain an exception for increased costs.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#98

Post by rajangdavis »

I think we should take it at good faith that Griddy was trying to provide a good service at what might have been a reasonable price that didn't factor in the entire Texas grid going down and the unexpected costs that would get passed on to consumers...

But, if I received a link to this page from my utility company, I would instantly feel a strong aversion towards them for the following reasons:

1. It's using a flat design image of a hand pushing a button, which might be the most generic, tech corporate aesthetic. This is a bizarre way of encapsulating the message of "We cannot feasibly perform as a reasonable service to our consumers so we're being shut down".

2. There is a reference to the word "Family". I love my family, but my relationship with them is entirely different than what I might expect from a utility company.

3. The message ends with "You will always be a Griddster.

A heartfelt thank you, The Griddy Family"

This is the most confusing message of all.

If my electric company was shutting down after charging an exorbitant bill with this message, I would be furious. This is peak corporate speak.

I think this message is probably not what a customer would want to read and I hope people in Texas can find a service that not only works but doesn't provide such corporate-speak to a situation that really amounts to them not accounting for a major catastrophe.

I think it would be reasonable for them to own up to what happened and really speak to that instead of the message they put out. The people that used this service deserve better than this

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#99

Post by Robotbeat »

aaomidi wrote: post #95
Robotbeat wrote: post #77

So, a thing I've been thinking of is that... because most people are on constant rate plans (where there isn't any incentive to cut back during a supply and/or demand crunch), the overall grid demand is a lot more inelastic than it would be if everyone where on a Griddy-like service. When, say, 75% of demand is insensitive to price signals, to get the 25% of demand that is sensitive to respond takes a MUCH bigger pri…

oh my lord, what is this thinking. People have enough shit to be worried about than to worry about their power ticker going up and down. This is not something we should add as a burden to our citizens. Next I'm going to hear people wanting to short electricity.

I mean, there is a valid point of reducing the mental load, but the alternative is paying significantly more for electricity (and producing more greenhouse gases). Particularly as we rely more and more on non-dispatchable renewable power sources.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#100

Post by nrmitchi »

gruez wrote: post #96
gpm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a point to which this is true, and there is a point at which this is no longer true because everyone is already doing everything they already can. Texas was quite obviously well beyond that second point during this crisis. Moreover that only excuses the people who actually had those extra expenses of charging more. The rest of the producers of electricity are morally (and under normal circumstances legally)…

> There is a point to which this is true, and there is a point at which this is no longer true because everyone is already doing everything they already can. Are they? I'm sure if the electricity rate was high enough it'd be worth it to airlift diesel generators across the country to make up the shortfall. Hell, you can probably fly in temp workers from europe/asia to do the necessary fixes.

> it'd be worth it to airlift diesel generators across the country to make up the shortfall. Hell, you can probably fly in temp workers from europe/asia to do the necessary fixes.

This event lasted 3 days. You think these private entities had the ability to coordinate airlifting generators (for what it's worth, IIRC fuel was the problem, not generators), and bringing in foreign skilled labor, to address a situation that will last a couple days?

If your next argument is going to be "The US Government/Military can do it" expect my response to be "If the US government can solve this problem for it's citizens during a crisis, it should be doing so whether the set price of electricity is >$9/kWh or not"

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