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The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#91
post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

I live in the UK and we have BSL (British Sign Language).

It’s absolutely bonkers that two fairly different sign languages exist for the same base spoken language.

That said, BSL uses a lot of facial cues, not just hands and arms, to allow for a range expression. Eg puffing out your cheeks to accentuate certain words.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#92
post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

I'd add in a third bullet noting that sign languages generally favor omitting unnecessary grammar, structure, etc.

Like "I love you" as [love sign] -> [point at person you love].

Or for example that "very" might exist in a signed language, but isn't often used. Just substituted with a more physically animated/vigorous version of the adjective, or added facial expression.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#93
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly what you mean. My gf works at a school for the deaf and we're both hearing.... and I'm sensitive to this pensiveness you mention. Three reasons: there is so much bad info out there, asl and deaf culture are evolving as we observe, and hardly anyone is cataloging or curating the info. There are no ambassadors. It parallels health information imo. I guess I should add the contemporary attitude of self-ri…

> knowing that it was Illegal to drive a car with headphones on, I once dared to ask if deaf ppl were allowed to drive. Did you ever get an actual answer? I'd guess yes, but it's a fair question

If I were to try to come up with a rationale, I guess it would be if you are able to hear, you have a duty to make your hearing available to increase safety. But, we won't automatically remove the right to drive from someone who can't hear as well or at all.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#94
post #22

Perhaps someone on HN knows the answer to a question I've had for years now. Why use sign language on platforms where text is accessible? I've wondered this since I first saw a TV broadcast with a signer off to the side. Isn't that what closed captions are for? Surely it's faster to read text captions than the gestures of some low-res recording of a human stuck in a tiny box in the corner of the screen. Video chat pl…

Because I have gone to see films in a number of languages I do not understand but they were sub-titled. I can't remember going to one that was not anime, and then not hearing someone complaining about having to read the dialogue.

These films (Chinese, Korean, Japanese, French and German) all clearly had posters at the theaters saying they were sub-titles and yet there was always someone demanding the movie be in English.

Also I think a number of people have poor/slow reading skills that they can't bluff about when someone uses signing.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#95
I think the most interesting part of this is the lack of shared space in video conferencing, and how it gets in the way of ASL's use of space. As the article mentions, many verbs in ASL are inflected ("conjugated") according to semantic roles (roughly "subject" / "object" (not exactly, because passive voice)).

"I ask you" and "I help you" can each be signed as a single entity, where the motion (starting at me, and moving in your direction) carries the information about the pronouns.

At the very least, the layout on each person's screen could be consistent so that person A is always at location 1, and so on. That might restore some sense of shared space.

This shows up as a pain-point even in a spoken-language setting. If everyone is introducing themselves, what order do they go in?

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#96
post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

I live in the UK and we have BSL (British Sign Language). It’s absolutely bonkers that two fairly different sign languages exist for the same base spoken language. That said, BSL uses a lot of facial cues, not just hands and arms, to allow for a range expression. Eg puffing out your cheeks to accentuate certain words.

The use of facial expressions is also incredibly important in ASL.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#97
post #40
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be useful to have some signs, but don't confuse a few signs with a language. One like going to a foreign country and knowing how to ask where the bathroom is, and understanding because more their pointing than their words vs going to the country and getting into a discussion of something weird with a stranger that you just happen to meet. Sign language is a real language you can learn the language. Or you can…

Why do I always sense anger seething below the surface of any conversation about sign language?

Because I have gone to see films in a number of languages I do not understand but they were sub-titled. I can't remember going to one that was not anime, and then not hearing someone complaining about having to read the dialogue.

These films (Chinese, Korean, Japanese, French and German) all clearly had posters at the theaters saying they were sub-titles and yet there was always someone demanding the movie be in English.

Also I think a number of people have poor/slow reading skills that they can't bluff about when someone uses signing.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#98
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So from my memory of ASL in college there was less worry about being rude or not offending. So if you were asked who someone was, you would start with their most identifiable feature. So if they are the only black guy in the room, or the most over weight you’d sign the black guy or the fat guy. Whereas in English it’s basically a joke now that we’d use just about any other descriptor besides those.

Does the language have the sort of precision required to say something like "rotund gentleman" instead? If not I can't really blame someone from saying something in the most polite way a language practically allows.

Limited practical knowledge here (beginner ASL and some time in a linguistics research lab) - there are fewer synonyms, but facial expression and other movements make a huge difference. Much like German adds suffixes that can really change the meanings of words, a eyebrow or tongue movement can modify a sign in ASL.

Another reason ASL has fewer synonyms is that it’s not a horrible amalgamation of a ton of different languages like English is (English has a weirdly large vocabulary, like 3 times as large as some other languages). ASL is a direct descendant of French SL, no weird mixing. Moroccan SL, in contrast, is a descendent/hybrid of several languages and it, as an example, has like a million different handshapes for different kinds of insects.

Further, a word-sentence model is too limited to describe sign languages (I know this applies ASL and Moroccan SL, not sure about others). For example, a large set of concepts are expressed through classifiers. Classifiers are systems of hand-shapes, spatial locations (e.g. side of head vs in front of chest), and motions which can specify a objects (including its shape, size, and location) and also the objects’s verb and relationship with other objects. Some people mistakenly think classifiers are a form of pantomime, but classifier motions and hand shapes have specified and limited meanings (e.g. the flat rectangular object classifier is not making a rectangle shape, it’s more of a pinching motion). That’s just one example of how sign languages diverge from a word-sentence model, many more differences exist.

The main take away is that sign languages work differently from spoken languages, it’s not that easy to compare 1-to-1. There’s definitely no word that means “rotund” in ASL, but there are certainly grammar structures that let you express that.

Although you could, there’s no need to soften or euphemize physical characteristics in American Deaf culture. You can just sign “that fat person over there” and it’s not considered rude.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#99
post #92
post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

I'd add in a third bullet noting that sign languages generally favor omitting unnecessary grammar, structure, etc. Like "I love you" as [love sign] -> [point at person you love]. Or for example that "very" might exist in a signed language, but isn't often used. Just substituted with a more physically animated/vigorous version of the adjective, or added facial expression.

Some go even further - my daughter uses Makaton, which is a sign (and symbol) language designed for people that have difficulty communicating (for different reasons, including cognitive impairment and neurological problems). In general the idea is to only use as many signs as you need, although of course you can amend depending on who is communicating.

As a point of note, Makaton is used at least a little at a lot of primary schools in Scotland (I would guess across the rest of the UK too), as a "supplementary language" for all kids.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makaton

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#100
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what signing is amazing for? Teaching babies to communicate before they have proper vocal control (preverbal is the term I think). We're talking useful communication at under a year. Something like 9-12 months.

Somewhat. Babies do tend to learn a few signs, and it is useful when they can indicate what they need. However as soon as they learn to talk they universally forget everything. I know people fluent in sign (a large part of their job is working with the deaf), and when they sign to babies the babies are like "you idiot: I just heard you talking to someone else so don't insult my intelligence by not talking to me" The…

> I know people fluent in sign (a large part of their job is working with the deaf), and when they sign to babies the babies are like "you idiot: I just heard you talking to someone else so don't insult my intelligence by not talking to me"

The way my friends have done this is to speak and sign, not just sign. I don't think any of them would've thought it was appropriate to only sign to a hearing child. The purpose was to teach them both the verbal language and a way to communicate back while they were still too young to verbalize (or, in one critical case, unable to speak due to a birth defect but were perfectly capable of hearing).

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