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Always Bet on Text (2014)

graydon2.dreamwidth.org

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Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add to that that, depending on the emoji font, the emoji will look completely different[0]. So as the sender you have no guarantee that the recipient of your message will actually interpret your emoji as you intended. It really is beyond me why the Unicode consortium thought that putting emojis in a character set would be a good idea. Sure, having a code point in your character set that represents a bird[1] makes sen…

Emoji are modern hieroglyphs. It's just an additional means of conveying meaning. > font designers now have control over the way I get to express my emotions This could have been a major issue, but media platforms recognized it and have provided their own pictograms for years, mostly compatible with each other.

They have a valid point, however. What is now widely considered to be a "water gun" emoji started out as an actual gun, but Apple decided at one point that they were going to be "progressive" and changed it to a water gun. To me, this upends the entire idea of emoji having a stable definition.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#92
post #77
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The medium of your reply contradicts the content.

That's a beautiful sentence, especially in this here context, but it flew over my head. Would you care to expand?

He alludes to the fact that the text you wrote as a comment is transmitted as "information" in the form of bytes.

But to formulate a counterpoint to this argument and support your original comment: The bytes we send via cables to transmit text are at a basic level just that: bytes. Ones and zeros. What makes these bytes understandable information is the fact that we have all agreed that a certain sequence of bits is assigned to a certain picture: A text symbol. This agreement has been a major source of pains and problems throughout the history of computing, think all these different text encodings and the problems that arise when you try to open a file with a different encoding than the one which it was saved with: You see a gibberish of symbols that do not make sense.

Which is why you have a point here: The pc does not care what information it transmits, it is only text because we have "taught" the pc to display a specific symbol (picture) when a certain sequence of bits is encountered.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#93
Apples and oranges. The post states that the used Twitter logo PNG is 4000 bytes, while it's only 723. Try to express that logo in text, English language and in all its details with 723 characters, so you are able to reproduce a pixel perfect representation. Not even possible with 4000 characters anyway. Don't bother. Text will be ambiguous, unless you describe every single detail. If the target is to communicate "Twitter logo" then sure, just write that. But if you compare 723 bytes of "data" with just a few specific information pieces contained within that data ... sure, text might be better.

> text is the most powerful, useful, effective communication technology ever, period.

Nothing of this is actually true, period.

> I do not post to this blog with the intention of entertaining Hacker News Debate Club and I frequently disable comments or friend-lock posts in order to avoid this sort of nonsense. I'm not interested in further discussion.

Ah yes, the true seal of quality. (sarcasm)

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but it makes me sad that we've come to see XML as primarily tech for serialization of component models, service payloads, and configs; that is, all the things that XML should not be used for. When actually SGML from which it's derived is all about text editing and using minimal markup to create implicit textual hierarchy.

The funny thing about XML is that it was explicitly conceived to solve problems of representing, translating and transmitting component models and configuration. The sad thing is that it was abused, horribly, in the early naughts when people tried to take it too far. On the one hand it was rushed out without the proper tooling and you had humans typing raw xml without the right amount of support from intelligent auto…

> XML still survives, though. The tooling is good. If you type XAML or HTML in the right editors, it's serves the purpose competently and without drama.

HTML isn't XML, though XML was inspired by HTML and HTML has an XML serialization.

IIRC, some or all of the versions of XAML aren't, strictly, XML either, merely XML-derivedl0

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#95

Completely fails to mention speech. And from the claims it makes ("text is the oldest") it seems either forgot about it, or is not even aware such thing exists.

Speech is not a communication "technology"; unlike writing, it didn't have to be "discovered".

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#96

I think the post conflates several quite unrelated concepts under the label text. Also what does he mean by text and information? For example he mentioned the "optical telegraph", which is a semaphore system which used a system of messages which AFAIK were not alphabetic text. Another example if we compare logographic language systems (e.g. Chinese characters, hieroglyphs ...) to alphabetic systems. I guess we can sa…

>..."optical telegraph", which is a semaphore system which used a system of messages which AFAIK were not alphabetic text. The pulses of light in an optical fiber are not alphabetic text either, but we are not talking about baseband here.

I wouldn’t have thought of this without your comment but i don’t know if it’s related. Media, including text, is sort of a cognitive baseband.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#97
post #14

Agreed, with a counterpoint: Text is efficient at transmitting data. If I want to describe a concept or an event, text is king. However, media is more efficient at transmitting sentiment. It will take you far more than 4000 bytes of text to transmit the feeling or emotion an icon can convey, when used well. This is why we've (as a species) started using emojis, and why media leans to emotion and sentiment while text…

> media is more efficient at transmitting sentiment

I don't agree with that. A photo doesn't contain much information about the emotional state of the photographer, unlike a few lines in a diary. My travel diaries are much richer in sentiment than my travel photos.

To me, emojis are a form of data compression. Common concepts are compressed into symbols: happy, sad, car, eggplant with 3 drops. Emojis are macros. That works as long as you exchange common concepts ("I feel sick"), but it falls flat if you need to venture beyond that ("My back is itchy"). You couldn't write a country's constitution with emojis. At least you shouldn't.

Likewise, a picture only shows what's visible. Travel photos don't capture the smell, the temperature, or how you feel after staying up all night with a sick stomach. A few words in a diary will.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#98

The question is whether these advantages are because text is a better communication medium, or because of the limitations of our technology? Take using a computer to type a word versus draw a picture: Effectively everyone who uses a computer can type a word, but I'd bet less than 10% could draw a circle. But put a piece of paper in front of someone and effectively everyone can draw a circle. This points to there bein…

Ah come on, this is not accurate at all.

We have tons of tech now: audio, video, charting, etc.

Circles are pretty easy in powerpoint or any such software.

The tech is obviously here already.

But still, why do people prefer sending chat texts instead of calling or video calling? Surely not because of tech.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#99
post #63

Text is not the oldest - nor easiest to use -, text is a heavy abstraction born somewhat recently in human history. The oldest and easiest is the visual in 3D, then comes the visual in 2D. Those exist since we have eyes. Our brain have dedicated and sizeable infrastructure for that. Children can communicate in 3D (gestures, posture, expressions, objects) and in 2D drawings before learning textural communication with…

The reason human knowledge develops so fast is the existence of text. If we rely on visual in 3D we will be the same as other animals. Apparently now we are behaving badly since we are consuming videos and pictures rather than text. I believe text is superior because of its abstraction, when you read, you are creating alongside the author.

Re: history.

I agree on the power of text as a technology, and the role it played. China & the Roman Republic/Empire are good examples of this.

But.... I think it's worth remembering that we lost something as we gained something. We tend to severely underestimate oral "technologies." Scholarship existed before writing. History, geography, etc. Text spent centuries or millennia as a peripheral media. It was mostly used for accounting in Mesopotamia & the Levant for thousands if years. Sometimes for religious, magical or political reasons. It wasn't a major medium for philosophy, storytelling, history or such until much later... So writing didn't really play much of a "knowledge accumulation" role until pretty late in the game.

I suspect that it developed so slowly because oral traditions were hard to beat. They had their own advantages. A song was an efficient way to learn history.

An important, if subtle, fact is that mediums are not just for communication. They're modes of thought. Text and speech will yield different ideas. Mathematics are a huge example. Ways of conveying mathematical concepts (eg negative numbers) enables us to conceive of mathematical concepts. If you write an essay, the ideas/conclusions you will have will be different. Even the difference between a scroll and a codex (book) can make a big difference. That difference is evident if you compare the modern practice of Judaism (scroll tradition) to Islam and Christianity (book traditions).

Socrates/Plato give us a nominally dividing line between the oral and written approaches. Socrates may have even been illiterate, but either way, his main medium was oral. In fact, most Greek philosophy came from the "mostly oral" period. This is why Plato, Aristotle, (Diogenes?) and others of that generation become so important. They're the link. They wrote down ideas created by oralists. This is how they could be accessed by macedonians, Romans and such.

I wonder if the charming, curious style we associate with the likes of Socrates or Diogenes is inherent to oralism. Compare them to later, literary philosophers... The literalists are far more grim. Senecca comes to mind. Even Aristotle. He's not as grim as roman philosophers, but he is a lot more serious. The oralists were playful... and greek/roman philosophy (imo) declines as writing overtakes oral traditions.

Socrates' thoughts "On the Forgetfulness that Comes with Writing" are recorded (tellingly) by Plato. It's not Plato's best piece, but very relevant to our times. If you memorise instead of using text, all your knowledge is inside your head. On paper, ideas are lifeless. Living ideas inside your head interact with each other, refine, create new ideas. When we convey them to one another, we can ask questions, read expressions, etc.

We don't just have books, we have the internet and pocket computers to access it. Socrates' point applies even more now.

One relevant example relevant to our times is "shades of uncertainty." Say you read an article about the economy, GDP growth, unemployment & such. A lot of that information is uncertain, either inherently or at this point in time. There may be dissident positions. That's usually lost in text but not in conversation.

I definitely think a short conversation about this year's economic data is more informative and deep than an article by that same economist.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#100
post #89
post #60

Why are people so afraid of moving forward? Imagine saying “always bet on punch cards”. Look at any whiteboard in any company or school. It’s filled with text and diagrams. Then watch how someone interacts with a PowerPoint or whiteboard. There is animation and dimensional extension. The way people think and organize and communicate thoughts is multifaceted and multidimensional. It only makes sense that we should be…

I don't think people are afraid of moving forward. Plenty of alternatives have been proposed, and text remains as effective as ever. The problem with punch cards is that they weren't effective: they were what technology permitted back then. But technology permits many other things besides text nowadays, and text still remains an amazing and effective piece of "technology", in the broadest sense of the term. Are we co…

I don’t think hybrid or non-textual methods have really been given their due or worked on so much, simply because the only-text sentiment is so pervasive.

I’m not proposing punch cards as effective. It was just a simple comparative example, which I thought was clear and that the rest of my post clarified what I actually meant.

> Are we communicating, right now, via animation or fancy PowerPoint slides?

It’s ironic you bring this up, because I don’t find this method particularly effective.

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