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China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

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Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#91

Post by reaperducer »

free_rms wrote: post #78
reaperducer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. "Deep ties to US agencies" is sensationalizing the facts. It's part of the United States government, and nobody has ever tried to keep that secret. Not RFA, not the U.S. Government. Nobody. "Deep ties" makes it seem like it's trying to be covert. It's not. It isn’t really a credible source. It's one of the more credible sources of news in Asia. Especially for more authori…

It's not covert, but it's quite literally a propaganda machine. The reason Radio Free Europe/Asia were founded was to broadcast the benefits of 'freedom' into communist-governed areas. You might think that we're qualitatively the good guys, and I'm all for freedom, but that's definitionally 'propaganda'.

I don't disagree that it was founded to try to convince the world that America is awesome. But "propaganda" is an overused term, and in this case, far too broad a brush.

People who listen to RFA know this. People who don't only see that it's run by a U.S. government agency and think it's the equivalent of Soviet shortwave days.

Not everything the government does is evil. Not everything the government publishes is propaganda.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#92

Post by trhway »

it may happen not necessarily as straight "nationalization", instead the CCP/government would just buy a controlling interest at a very sweet non-cash price what Ma and other shareholders would be more than happy to sell at ... given the alternatives.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#93

Post by matthewdgreen »

free_rms wrote: post #78
reaperducer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. "Deep ties to US agencies" is sensationalizing the facts. It's part of the United States government, and nobody has ever tried to keep that secret. Not RFA, not the U.S. Government. Nobody. "Deep ties" makes it seem like it's trying to be covert. It's not. It isn’t really a credible source. It's one of the more credible sources of news in Asia. Especially for more authori…

It's not covert, but it's quite literally a propaganda machine. The reason Radio Free Europe/Asia were founded was to broadcast the benefits of 'freedom' into communist-governed areas. You might think that we're qualitatively the good guys, and I'm all for freedom, but that's definitionally 'propaganda'.

The question at issue here is whether RFE/RFA's reporting is known to be reputable. As far as I can tell, it is. (Funding a reputable journalistic organization is entirely consistent with "broadcasting the benefits of freedom", and doing the opposite would probably undermine those goals.)

The person who started this thread is trying to discount an RFA report solely because of the source. That seems unwarranted.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#94

Post by whimsicalism »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #82
Barrin92 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US p…

The US government isn't really THAT much different from Japan and all of Europe, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, etc... Even India and, theoretically, even Russia, too. So, it's not surprising the average Chinese person has a decent understanding of how a basic democracy works. In some ways, China is also not THAT much different, either. But it is more different than pretty much every other major economy in the wo…

> in a lot of ways it is more capitalist than a lot of the West

China definitely has big market aspects and private ownership, but I also think this can be overstated.

There is still massive public ownership of major companies and banks in China and land in all urban areas is publicly owned as well.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#95

Post by f430 »

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1]

At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this:

1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed"

2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized

3) Rinse & Repeat

Everybody who isn't familiar with the inner workings of the CCP thinks that Jack Ma openly challenged the CCP. That simply isn't the case. They are using as an excuse to take over the company because they can.

As much as people in the West praise CCP's economic rise, and some even point to its authoritarian system as superior to our democracy, but little do they know the very laws that protect them isn't an option in China.

Imagine spending most of your life building a massive business and then one day it is taken from you by force by an authoritarian ruler.

This is why anyone that has money send their kids abroad and move permanently to a Western country that their kids despise and criticize their host for calling out the CCP.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJK_5qDraM

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#96

Post by whimsicalism »

mssundaram wrote: post #84
jonplackett wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a discussion a while back between Musk and Ma. I think you do a disservice to Musk to compare them. He really didn't seem able to keep up.

Wouldn't it be a disservice to Ma if you're saying Musk couldn't keep up?

I think they are saying that Ma couldn't keep up.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#97

Post by jcytong »

Barrin92 wrote: post #52
DaedPsyker wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the CCP is mostly at fault. They wanted to control and limit discussion and even news on alibaba so of course people are going to speculate in the absence of information.

Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US p…

Serious question: How does one get educated about modern China? (I'm Chinese but mostly Western educated)

Having seen my grandparents/parents/relatives escaping communist China and now my generation escaping HK, it has heavily influenced me on how even people who identified as Chinese and hoping for democracy and freedom for their own cousins in China are being played and lied to for multiple decades.

My people in HK are screaming that the West previous engagement policies have proven again and again to be ineffective. It's believed that the only way is to "distrust and verify" and not kowtow to their ways like what the West had been doing for the previous decades.

I do not claim to know everything about how the Chinese system functions and can only observe how my immediate network is being oppressed but still hope that there's a way to engage the CCP if at all possible.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#98

Post by echelon »

notJim wrote: post #75
orange_tee wrote: post #32

The West thought once China is full of billionaires, the billionaires having all that wealth would then have the power to oppose and dissolve the CCP. Didn't go as planned.

Why is it better for Chinese billionaires to run the country than the CCP? Seems like just trading one master for another.

The thought was that billionaires would push for freedom and liberty (like Jack Ma).

The CCP will not be opposed.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#99

Post by SeanLuke »

Leary wrote: post #77
reaperducer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. "Deep ties to US agencies" is sensationalizing the facts. It's part of the United States government, and nobody has ever tried to keep that secret. Not RFA, not the U.S. Government. Nobody. "Deep ties" makes it seem like it's trying to be covert. It's not. It isn’t really a credible source. It's one of the more credible sources of news in Asia. Especially for more authori…

NYTimes seems to disagree: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...

You're citing a news article from 1977 as your counterpoint?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#100

Post by throw7482625 »

reaperducer wrote: post #87
Leary wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYTimes seems to disagree: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...

That article is 44 years old. RFA isn't part of the CIA. It's part of U.S. Agency for Global Media. From Wikipedia: an independent agency of the United States government which operates various state-run media outlets.[2] It describes its mission, "vital to US national interests", to "inform, engage, and connect people around the world in support of freedom and democracy"[3] and in accordance with the "broad foreign p…

That’s literally the definition of propaganda.

Why is it so difficult for Americans to believe that the US engages in a war of propaganda against countries it labels as “adversaries”? [1]

[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...

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