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What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

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Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#91

Post by fy20 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #49
sideshowb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the things you list are accurate... Also, more 20mph speed limits on urban routes useful to cyclists. Cheap and effective for creating a more cycling friendly environment.

To paraphrase current civil engineering doctrine: A sign doesn't do anything to turn a four lane boulevard into a road people drive 20 on. The enforcement needed to back up the sign is not the kind of thing people put up with in the western world (a few pockets of Europe notwithstanding). You need to actually design the road to make 20mph a reasonable speed.

My city has done quite a good job of making itself much more cyclist friendly over the last couple of years and reducing the speed people drive. Most of the roads were already more than wide enough before for bike lanes, but that came at the expense of people driving at 60km/h in densely packed urban areas (the speed limit is 40, but nobody cares).

- On quieter roads in retail areas they added painted white lines, but most importantly they've enforced them so delivery drivers don't park over the cycle lane.

- On roads in busier areas that had street parking they've shifted the street parking inwards a couple of meters, and put a cycle lane between the street parking and pavement. This means the driving part of the road is narrower, so people drive slower.

- On other streets that were too small for a cycle lane and street parking, they have removed street parking and put up a cycle lane separated with small bollards (a few cm high, so can be driven over). These are usually in areas where you would have only driven at 20km/h. We have a lot of cobbled streets and they aren't (I'm wondering if it's intentional) very well maintained, so most are very uneven. The only issue with these is that delivery drivers do park over them, because now there is nowhere else for them to park. Of course people complained about the reduction in street parking, but that issue was quickly forgotten.

- They changed a lot of road directions (bikes are exempt) so that you cannot drive through the city center to get across the city. This did increase traffic a little in other routes (this happened at the start of this year, so hard to tell because of covid), but it means that as a cyclist you can easily cycle through the city center which has much less car traffic. Of course people complained, but again it was quickly forgotten.

- A few streets that were popular for commuters were tested being pedestrian only in the summer (case numbers here were fairly low then, so traffic levels were maybe 75% of normal). Again people complained, but the issues were quickly forgotten.

- Proliferation of food delivery services have meant there are much more bikes on the road, so drivers are more cautious.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#92

Post by kbrosnan »

zachrose wrote: post #90
analog31 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>>> There's no equivalent to the Dutch department store bikes that, if memory serves correctly, were cheap but simple, low-maintenance, and better outfitted for casual riding (fenders, a light, a lock). Schwinn made such bikes for decades. Folks stopped buying them.

Interesting, do you know what they were called?

They were not all exactly like Dutch bikes. Though they were inexpensive and fairly common through the mid 80s Stuff like the Breeze, Speedster, Suburban, etc. See https://bikehistory.org/ for a lot more examples.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#93

Post by analog31 »

zachrose wrote: post #90
analog31 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>>> There's no equivalent to the Dutch department store bikes that, if memory serves correctly, were cheap but simple, low-maintenance, and better outfitted for casual riding (fenders, a light, a lock). Schwinn made such bikes for decades. Folks stopped buying them.

Interesting, do you know what they were called?

Indeed, the styling was different, but the concept was similar. Here is just one example.

https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCat/flschwinn_1961_1970/19...

They also had a delivery bike that almost anticipates the modern baekfiets. And some department stores such as Sears and Wards had similar lines at somewhat lower prices.

I have a early 60s Schwinn that is still in good working order despite no maintenance other than lubrication and new tires.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#94

Post by johnwalkr »

I had an internal geared hub (IGH) bike with a coaster brake and it was a blast to ride with almost zero maintenance. Even as an enthusiast that likes doing maintenance, it was nice to have that bike.

I’m an advocate for IGH and drum or coaster brakes for casual commuter riders. Belt drives are nice too. These things have more drag than a derailleur and disc or caliper brakes, but this is offset by the maintenance aspect. What people don’t often realize is that IGH can have very wide gearing. A 3 or 7 speed IGH can have as wide gearing as a 24 speed, just with fewer gears in between and fewer gear combinations that are virtually the same. Another nice feature is you can change gears when stopped.

On the other hand, what seems to sell in North America is crappy bikes with full suspension and maximum number of gears.

In this case, Shimano should have simply sold the public on IGH and other existing low maintenance features, and got people on test rides. The automated shifting part seems useless and annoying. The real benefit is having fewer gears and one rather than 2 places to change the gear which is much simpler to manage. Actually IGH can’t shift smoothly under load so I can only imagine this automated system would feel clunky whenever you’re trying to accelerate or ride uphill.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#95

Post by sideshowb »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #70
sideshowb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the things you list are accurate... Also, more 20mph speed limits on urban routes useful to cyclists. Cheap and effective for creating a more cycling friendly environment.

Then the police start ticketing cyclists exceeding the limit.

In some cases that's entirely appropriate, though not always, also an anecdote from the UK:

A policeman in a car pulled up alongside my friend on his bike, said do you know you clocked 45mph though that 30 zone.

"Er I'm sorry officer..."

"Don't worry, legally that limit only applies to motor vehicles. I wanted to say well done."

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#96

Post by Closi »

ogre_codes wrote: post #41
brudgers wrote: post #2

A description of the Coasting system at Park Tool, https://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-corner/shimano-coastin...

This whole premise is crazy. Automatic shifting on bike is not a good idea. While people are terrible at shifting at first, they can learn to get better. Automatic shifting never improves. It's meant to be simple, but basic maintainability is a nightmare. Changing a tire requires 3 tools and about 10 steps just to pull the tire off. Thats bonkers. Pretty much eliminates any chance of roadside tire fixes.

I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Maintainability is not a big concern for them - someone else does it (The last tire change the local bike shop did it for us for £5 + parts).

They would completely be in the target market for this. If they were buying a bike, this is a system they would want. In fact, it's a system I would want them to have, because I'm sick of watching them struggle with a single gear and they really do not feel comfortable with multiple gears!

I've tried to explain the benefits of multiple gears and how it's actually simple, but they won't have it. They aren't that comfortable with riding a bike anyway, and they don't want something extra to think about on top of all the other things. I also don't think they are completely atypical.

I can also see this being a great rental option, and great for kids who want a step-up bike as they learn.

Your argument seems to be "advanced users don't want this" - but that's not the target market. Automatic gears on cars don't go into racing cars, and manual gearboxes can be easier to maintain and provide more control. Automatic gears on cars are actually really there to reduce complexity for the average driver, which is what this is for bikes.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#97

Post by brnt »

fian wrote: post #71
brnt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch person here. The thing you foreigners don't get is that cycling shouldn't be regarded as a sport. All your problems with cycling stem from that misconception.

Australian person here. When the summer temps are routinely over 30C and winters have many rainy days, cycling in casual clothes doesn't work except for only very short distances. Most commuters in my city that ride more than 5km to work have adopted at least some lycra as part of their kit. It handles sweat better in summer and can be rinsed of sand then spun and air dried in winter, so you aren't getting into cold…

I lived in France where such temperatures were also the norm. In the Netherlands there is rain that will get everywhere.

Accepting these discomforts is part of cycling in my view. Iets always foreigners who complain about such discomforts (my wife is ons of thema ;)), Dutch people simply accept it.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#98

Post by petre »

exabrial wrote: post #67
martyvis wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a large population is going to "shred" a track to get around its going to end up a muddy rut in no time, or only works for able 15-55 year olds.

That was the initial concern. It turns out, a diverse population turns out to turn up. Let me see if I can find their study. EDIT: ARGH. I can't find the study I was reading during the summer. But from what I remember, roughly 25% of people were 35-45, 25% were 46-55, and probably the most amazing is the 56-65 group was around 20%!

The 55-65 group will just use e-MTBs.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#99

Post by petre »

saagarjha wrote: post #62
exabrial wrote: post #60

I think one think urban planners [and HNers] get wrong about bike usage is bike lanes and mixing bikes with cars. That works in overcrowded coastal cities, but for the vast majority of the country, a different approach is likely optimal. Bentonville, AR I think has cracked the puzzle. They built mountain bike trails... literally everywhere. You're hanging out with your buddies north of town and want to grab a pizza f…

Right, but then you have to ride a mountain bike around. Which isn't really the best for longer distances of casual transportation…

For longer distances you just get a gravel or touring bike. Works on singletrack most of the time as well.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#100

Post by brnt »

maccard wrote: post #61
brnt wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I have lived abroad in such circumstances for a number of years. Local cyclists were hard to convince that they were not very good at advocating the bicycle as a mode of daily transport. Getting cars under control is certainly the first thing that must happen, but cyclists running red lights and being worried about their 'gear' are a nuisance everywhere. They are no more tolerated in the Netherlands than out…

As a cyclist and driver in a city, cyclists running red lights is one of those things that people talk about like it's a massive problem. It's not cyclists blowing red lights at busy junctions, if they did that they would be killed here instantly. It's cyclists trying to go when there isn't any traffic going, or they're competing with pedestrians. Yeah you get the occasional asshat, but you get them in cars too, and…

I have steen many (near) accidents with cyclists who wanted tot conserve momentum, which really only sporty types do.

Like I said, all problems stem from that misconception. You're right that crossing 5 secs before the light turns green is one of the safest moments, but as I will happily demonstrate if you'd make it to the Netherlands, intersections need not be traffic arenas. Those solutions are halfbaked and still within an ill conceived approach to traffic.

Reducing speeds is essential, increasing predictability too, and naturally cyclists are no exception.

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