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Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

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Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#91

Post by DrAwdeOccarim »

antognini wrote: post #66
chrisseaton wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But then what was the point of the postdoc? To continue to develop as a researcher and build up your research skills, publication portfolio, and network, ready to move into industry. If you do an ok PhD you could spend a couple of years as a postdoc refining that research and building on your foundation to really making a name for yourself and then apply to industry at your peak into a senior position.

It varies by field, but in my experience companies value experience in academia at about 1/2 the rate of experience in industry. So someone who spent five years in grad school getting a PhD and then spent another three years as a postdoc might be considered the equivalent of someone with four years of experience in industry. If you are going to leave academia anyway it is much more efficient to do it as soon as possi…

Really insightful comment, I completely agree. It also has to do with the resources available in industry that increases the time value. You can get so much more done in industry because you have larger budgets and tighter timelines. The beauty of academia is it allows you time to ponder. So yes, it's less efficient but you typically find serendipity on the long way home compared to taking highway.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#92

Post by yodsanklai »

gspr wrote: post #74

I hope you'll forgive me ranting, but it's almost exactly a year ago since I left academia (was a postdoc), and I'm feeling very down about it and need to let out some thoughts. First the positives: academia has some amazing qualities. If you "make it" (or, alternatively, until you "fail" and drop out) you'll spend most of your time working on problems that you are truly passionate about. The kind of problems that yo…

> If you "make it" (or, alternatively, until you "fail" and drop out) you'll spend most of your time working on problems that you are truly passionate about.

I wonder to what extent this is correct. I heard professors saying they can do actual research only in their free time. Rest of the time is managing, administration, teaching, attending various committee and so on...

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#93

Post by LockAndLol »

The people expanding our scientific understanding of the world being undervalued by society and institutions is the epitome of our current state. We're burning out our engines and slowing down innovation... for what?

Can any academics or postdocs express what they believe should change to improve their situations?

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#94

Post by yodsanklai »

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science

I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries).

What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs spending months looking for their next job, and usually, their advisors are fine with that. They understand well the difficulties of their students or post-docs.

Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, not because professors are some kind of bullies harassing their students. I'm certain it exists but it's far from the norm.

It's competitive because you're competing with the whole world, and there are some people out there who are much smarter than you. And you are constantly reminded of this fact, when you go to a conference (or because you don't get to go because your paper isn't accepted), when you read your colleague's paper and so on. I've worked with well-known people (including a Turing award recipient), and even them were insecure at times.

And of course, it's hard because you don't know if you'll find a job after your current post-doc. The more average you are, the more insecurity, the harder it gets.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#95

Post by arpa »

j7ake wrote: post #76

I think the academic path should be compared as analogous to other “creatives” paths (eg writer, musician, artists), although probably less extreme. People continue to do it because of the ownership of the work, the nearly unlimited potential upside from discovery, and the ability to build on serendipitous discoveries into your own portfolio. The downside is being stuck in a bad situation in academia can be psycholog…

Funny thing, a few weeks ago I read an opinion piece posted here on HN that gives pretty solid reasoning (imho) why people pursue academic careers: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2013/12/11/ho...

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#96

Post by angrais »

yodsanklai wrote: post #94

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs s…

>> I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries).

Great to hear that you've not encountered bullying in the academy, but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving. Often when it occurs, the university will side with the academic rather than postdoc or PhD students, which puts them in an extremely difficult situation since their manager is often the bully. In addition, you're likely in a position of power since you've been in academy for 15+ years ... It could be that you do not interact with certain circles to observe this behaviour.

Also, discrimination, particularly sexism also very much occurs, including to students. See for for example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2...

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#97

Post by foldr »

Mmrnmhrm wrote: post #57
ebg13 wrote: post #2

Postgraduate student depression and suicidality is at horrifying proportions. The universities don't care. No one cares. Academia is super fucked and super fucked up, and it just keeps marching onward with blindfold on and fingers in ears, yelling "LA LA LA LA" as loud as possible. Academic positions are basically gone. Whatever didn't vanish completely after the 2009 recession is definitely gone now. Universities co…

I can relate. I just read this at 3am while trying to stop wondering what to do with my life. I had the childhood dream of being a professor, and after a short stint in industry, when someone gave me the chance to do a PhD I took it. Life got in the way and got my PhD at 36 years old. Nobody guided me, and did not optimize my publication schedule, so it is impossible to land a job in academia. Now I am postdoc 39, no…

>Another colleague got a job at 36 as a bare programmer after a very successful PhD where he wrote books and was invited to conferences.

I can relate, as this basically describes me - though I've been lucky enough to find bare programing jobs that I quite like doing.

One of the toughest things about leaving academia is discovering that (i) no-one who doesn't have a PhD has any clue what a PhD is and (ii) everyone who has a PhD has a healthy disregard for the intellectual capacities of their fellow doctors.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#98

Post by foldr »

yodsanklai wrote: post #94

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs s…

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive,

The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing.

Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect of this is that it enables me to take a rational view of how attractive these prestige jobs really are. And there are limits on what Google can demand of its engineers because they all have other options.

Academia these days is competitive in about the same way as gladiatorial combat.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#99

Post by gspr »

yodsanklai wrote: post #92
gspr wrote: post #74

I hope you'll forgive me ranting, but it's almost exactly a year ago since I left academia (was a postdoc), and I'm feeling very down about it and need to let out some thoughts. First the positives: academia has some amazing qualities. If you "make it" (or, alternatively, until you "fail" and drop out) you'll spend most of your time working on problems that you are truly passionate about. The kind of problems that yo…

> If you "make it" (or, alternatively, until you "fail" and drop out) you'll spend most of your time working on problems that you are truly passionate about. I wonder to what extent this is correct. I heard professors saying they can do actual research only in their free time. Rest of the time is managing, administration, teaching, attending various committee and so on...

I've heard similar stories from the US. In the European countries I'm familiar with, tenured staff certainly have time to do research. More of that research happens through student supervison than directly, perhaps, but still.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#100

Post by yodsanklai »

foldr wrote: post #98
yodsanklai wrote: post #94

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs s…

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect o…

> The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing.

I agree but only to some extent.

First, there are many research institutions in the world. The same way there is more than one software company. They are not all equally selective and prestigious.

There are also a lot of companies doing R&D. It may not be academic research, but it can also be pretty cool. In that sense, not getting an academic position isn't the end of the world. Even if it may seem so from the perspective of a post doc.

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