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The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

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Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My memory of corporal punishment — three times in my life — was a reminder of the severity of how wrong something I did was and looking back at it was completely justified. It’s not fear as much as shock to remember the moment. The pain was insignificant and so there was no fear, at least for me.

I guess we are talking about different things. Parents of traditional/conservative households in my neighborhood would routinely strike their kids with heavy implements, over and over for at least several minutes, inflicting serious pain. Kids would adapt and their pain tolerances would increase, they'd try to hide it, their parents would find out and escalate. It was a whole thing.

Oh yeah, there’s no excuse for that.

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Since corporal punishment is not allowed, parents tend to discipline their kids by attacking their self worth. There's no doubt we're in this awkward generation where our parents were probably treated with corporal punishment, but still want to inflict onto their kids this which they were exposed to as a kid despite this no longer looking good/being legal. Even the anti-child-abuse book "For Your Own Good" by Alice…

How do you push through a phase with no corrective mechanism allowed on the other side? How do you propose you correct your kids? Corporal punishment is quick and decisive and both parties can move on quickly as opposed to the lifelong mental baggage that weighs down a lot of people in the western world.

I'm not in the camp of saying all corporal punishment is abuse, but IMO it's quite limited in the ages and situations where it's applicable.

Has everyone on this thread forgotten about non-physical punishments?

These should take the form of natural and logical consequences whenever possible.

Make sure the kid understands what's expected of them, and how they failed to meet the expectations. Then, if needed, reinforce this with natural consequences (when it makes sense). Classic example is taking away possessions or privileges when they're misused.

Punishments can certainly be arbitrary or disproportionate (which tends to spark resentment - and possibly the mental baggage you mention) so it's important to do it thoughtfully. Done right, it's effective and non-traumatizing.

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#93

I recently read a story about two people on their death beds, both had worked hard and achieved success in their fields. One was happily reflective and talked about what a journey life had been, the other was upset and remorseful, talking about how much time he had wasted. I wonder if the contents of your life are secondary to your semi-hardwired emotional state. I am naturally somewhat anxious and hate wasting a day…

> Maybe it does not matter what you achieve, boxes you check, friends or relationships you make along the way. At the end if you are an unhappy person it will not be enough, and if you are naturally content it will all seem ok.

Honestly, COIVD made me confront and explore that very subject incredibly deeply--month's long trains of thought about past experiences--, despite previously being in therapy and generally considering myself quite introspective; it also coincided with learning about how many founders in startups have many commonly found mental health issues (anxiety is almost always there) that lend themselves to enduring startup culture's grind.

That anxiety and restlessness is fuel that gets you to keep pushing to the next milestone when everything else is failing all around and its an incredible source, but the question then becomes: at what cost? For me being unhappy was just the cost of admission to apply my skill set to an immense complex problem; seeing incredibly sad things like currency collapses and Society's wrecked by hyper-inflation fucking sucks but it became my norm, what came after in that journey was an even higher cost altogether.

Failing to address that critical psychological factor is why I think burnout is also so common, you lose sight of the what and why you did something, which often starts as simple as thinking it was simply 'cool and interesting' thing to do with one's limited time and not simply testing how many times can you can endure going beyond your mental and psychological limits before it completely adversely affects your health in a way you that you may never actually recover from.

Which I think is something that is never discussed in founder/startup culture until after someone like Tony Hsieh dies and most just scratch their heads and try to figure out 'why?'

I can't say I'm completely over this either, as I think some ambition still lingers depending on the project ideas, but I've been forced to have to make sure I don't take on 'too much' and solely focus on one path now after being too many burnouts from doing 2-3 at any given time, but also realizing the value of the skill set you've gained as a result of your experiences. And having confidence in that instead of being obsessed with keeping up with every new update and knowing you can bring yourself up to date as needed.

I've also started to take advice from the cautionary tales that I previously ignored or that I simply didn't feel apply to me. Everyone is susceptible to these consequences and the only waste of time is to not at least consider how it could occur to you and try to learn from their mistake(s) to avoid repeating the same.

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a child is old enough to understand (usually younger than you think, judging from my friends' children), they're old enough to deserve a conversation about why what they did was not a good thing. Will they act out again? Probably, but that only requires more energy and intelligence from the parent to educate their child. Corporal punishment is lazy, short-sighted parenting that is a "chronic, developmental stresso…

The problem with conversations is they sometimes end up turning into exactly what I was defining in my original comment above, a long drawn out attack on the child’s self worth. Just because something is quicker and feels cruder doesn’t automatically mean it’s lazy.

Well, true. Emotional abuse is still abuse. I wouldn't say it's a justification for reverting to physical abuse instead, rather educating yourself as a parent on how raise your child in a supporting manner that guides rather than punishes.

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#95
post #63

I just finished reading “Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear” by Elizabeth Gilbert (of Eat, Pray, Love fame) and she brought up a related and interesting idea I can paraphrase: In midlife we’re concerned with status and our outward appearance, which can hinder creative output. Then we get older and realize that we don’t care what anyone thinks about us, which can lead to more creative risk taking and accomplishmen…

"nobody is thinking about you (except you) so it’s not worth concerning yourself with status or outside validation." This is often repeated, but it is so untrue that I don't get why well-intentioned people repeat it. Nobody thinks about me as much as I think about me, but some make decisions, be romantic, professional, based on what they think about me, that is my appearance, my status, my money, my family. As usual,…

TBH I think the straw man here is taking that sentence literally, which I can’t imagine any sane person doing. The sentiment itself is idiomatic at this point.

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#96
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people are not thinking as much about them anymore I disagree. I don't observe much difference in this sense, but I feel more free to be my authentic self without worrying about how that might be perceived by people who are not a meaningful part of my life. I only recognise the meaning in "life begins at 40" since I reached it.

There are different points that need to be touched here. First, as always, there is a distribution of effects, which means that there is individual variation. We can reasonably assume that, _on average_, the older people are, the less they care about other people's opinions. The age after which these effects are noticeable is not immutable since the dawn of times, but depends on when people have kids, are expected to…

> there is a distribution of effects, which means that there is individual variation.

You're saying this to indicate that anyone who disagrees with you is an outlier, but what you have claimed is completely un-relatable to me and I don't recognise it in (most) other people that I interact with.

Giving up on sport/fitness and normalised obesity is a uniquely modern phenomenon, and almost uniquely American.

Giving up on sex and competition is not something you can really accuse the Boomer generation of. You only need to look at the demographics of the US Presidential candidates, or any other elite career in 2020, to understand that status-seeking is most pronounced in that generation of men.

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#97
post #86
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth asking why we shackle ourselves to ideas made when we barely had any knowledge of the world

The alternative you end up living under is one the parents create. While likely more attainable, not likely fulfilling. You could change goals as you go... I did that. But if you’re like me, you have failure around every corner and you’re more ambitious than a thousand men. You will become jaded well before you’re 40. I was jaded before I was even 30. I gave up and tried again many times. And now that I’m 30, I hate…

That sounds like a somewhat torturous and navel-gazing way of seeing things, although I have definitely felt a form of what you describe here so please don't take it as a personal attack. In my case, it was correlated with a lack of stimulus and worthwhile things to do in my life at the time.

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#98
post #85
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a realization similar to this not too long ago during a manic episode. The philosophical beliefs and impressions of the world and our own selves that we hold are a byproduct of our general mood and are essentially post-facto rationalizations. On a side note, I find it strange that so much attention is given to a person's final days and whether regret will experienced then. They should not count much more than a…

The truly great thing about dying is that you won’t regret it.

"Death is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not" — Epicurus

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#99
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different points that need to be touched here. First, as always, there is a distribution of effects, which means that there is individual variation. We can reasonably assume that, _on average_, the older people are, the less they care about other people's opinions. The age after which these effects are noticeable is not immutable since the dawn of times, but depends on when people have kids, are expected to…

> there is a distribution of effects, which means that there is individual variation. You're saying this to indicate that anyone who disagrees with you is an outlier, but what you have claimed is completely un-relatable to me and I don't recognise it in (most) other people that I interact with. Giving up on sport/fitness and normalised obesity is a uniquely modern phenomenon, and almost uniquely American. Giving up o…

I don't remember being this misunderstood in recent times, so let me clarify before moving on (and I don't think dismissive comments like the one I am answering to provide much benefit to the conversation).

"You're saying this to indicate that anyone who disagrees with you is an outlier" - Not at all. People who disagree with me have a different view on the issue, different experiences. That there is variation is inevitable in every complex, non-deterministic process (like status-seeking behavior, feeling at ease with oneself). On the contrary, complex, but deterministic (like how many hands one has), have very little variation.

"Giving up on sport/fitness and normalised obesity is a uniquely modern phenomenon, and almost uniquely American." - I disagree. And I am not American, although I have been living in the US for years; I am from one the countries who are considered "healthy". We need to distinguish differences between cohorts (over time) and differences within cohorts over time, but I don't want to make this too long (interesting pub here that supports what I had written: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17461391.2019.1...). Up to the 80s, adult sports for hobby basically did not exist outside of the wealthy and the (yes, in this case) outliers. There are data and anecdotes, let me use the latter here. Among my grandparents' social circle (the vast majority not being among us any more), there is not a single one who did any sports after they were 18-20. So we might not even see a drop in activity, because the activity never started. In my parents', there were a few here and there, some who played tennis (well off people), some runners, some playing golf, the boxer, the judo guy (for women, outside of maybe some dancing, zero sports I remember about). When I started training with weights in the early 90s, gyms for adults were far and few in between. Now, in 2020, there are more gyms and activities for adults than ever and participation in adult sports activities has never been higher (see publication above). Apart from the sick and the exception, when I look at photos of my parents and grandparents' friends (social media, old weddings), they are all fatter than they were in their 20s. In my home country, up to the 70s, calories were simply not abundant and/or not convenient (if you need to start from raw potatoes to have french fries, you are in for the long haul).

"Giving up on sex and competition is not something you can really accuse the Boomer generation of." - I have no idea where this is coming from, surely not from me. But if you ask, across every generation, the distribution of sex-seeking and status-seeking behavior shifts (and it is surprising I have to write this) with the age in the direction of less sex and less competition (related to Boomers, one hypothesis is that the variance increases with age. It might be, it should be tested). Now, if you ask me to make a prediction (which will be proven right or wrong, we'll see), for millenials the shift with age will be slower, more will use TRT, more will have kids later in life, more will feel healthy and competitive (not competitive at the neighborhood meeting) later in life. And yes, we read about the horny boomers, but rest assured they were much more interested in sex when they were in their 20s. Hormones are powerful! Then, if you and your social circles had different experiences and you are all having more sex at 50 than at 20 and you are more competitive in sports now that in high school, I am fine with it.

Re: The demographic and cultural roots of the midlife crisis

#100
post #26
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m about to turn 40 and have never felt less in crisis. Although I have never had any fear of my own mortality which could be what drives the crisis for many people. I also don’t tend to care much about what I’m “supposed” to do in life vs what I want to do.

Curious if your hobbies include anything physical? Turned 30 recently and I feel like there's a good chance I won't do what I want in sports. Not so much about mortality but feeling your self not be as athletic as you have sucks and it only gets worse.

I’m in better shape than I’ve ever been. Lots of cardio and a decent amount of lifting.
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