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The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

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Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#91

Post by dalke »

iRomain wrote: post #19
cageface wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At every company I've worked I've lobbied for us to make donations to open source projects we depend on. Every single time it quietly dies in legal. There must be a better way.

OSS could use similar licensing as some SaaS where it's free for personal use or commercial use up to certain limits and then you have to pay. This would ensure developers can use it freely but at some time a company would have to either pay it or ditch it. However I see two issues with this model: - the community will shit on it like it's not real OSS - big companies will start banning the use of such licenses The o…

If OSS used a non-OSS license like what you suggest then of course it wouldn't be "real OSS".

https://opensource.org/osd - "No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor" includes "it may not restrict the program from being used in a business".

"paid support" means you have to make sure your software is good enough to use and crappy enough to need support.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#92

Post by apatters »

bawolff wrote: post #72
apatters wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I never understood is why don't more maintainers just post the rate at which they'd be willing to do the work other people want? I suspect very few open source maintainers are doing so well financially that there's NO rate they would accept to perform other people's requests for their own project. Whatever number it would take to motivate you to do the work, just put it out there. Aside from the fact that y…

Lots of people do this as a hobby - getting paid for a hobby is a very good way to make it not fun anymore. If its consistent $$$ that might be worth it. For a one shot thing, maybe not as much. I think it also can be difficult to mix volunteer stuff with money. Posting in a bug tracker that multiple people work from which anyone can take on a bug from, that you will do it for $x, can make it feel like you're using a…

Sure, but for almost everyone, there's a dollar figure at which they're willing to stop having fun and start making money. Maybe that dollar figure is $1,000/hr for some open source maintainer out there (I bet it's much lower for most of them).

Why not put a line in the readme which says, if you want to commission a specific change, send me an email to discuss, my consulting rate starts at $XXX/hr. Or there's a $YYYY project minimum, or whatever is meaningful to the maintainer. If that feels too aggressive then leave the dollar figures out. Hard to imagine this running afoul of any reasonable community norms, especially for a project which already has the problem of too many people asking for things.

Maintainers can handle this problem however they like, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who's not getting paid, if they've never asked to be paid. I think they would be better off asking.

And again, if no one inquires - then nothing changes, it's still a 100% hobby project, with the bonus that the expectation to do other people's shit for free is gone.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#93

Post by dvdkon »

ianlevesque wrote: post #57
zamalek wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was so easy to "sneak" into the process where I work: > The fastest way to get results is for me to contribute a fix. > Can't we copy their code and fix it locally? > Absolutely, but then we won't get any fixes from them in the future, unless we set up our own build infrastructure and have a team make sure that they merge across changes regularly. ... which starts sounding like lots of money. Your employer cares…

I agree this is a great way to sell it, but don’t all the dead end forks of Linux for various ARM SoCs belie the Linux argument?

They perfectly demonstrate the disadvantages of private forks. They don't get security fixes, other bugfixes, or new features that userspace software will eventually use.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#94

Post by didibus »

noncoml wrote: post #85

There are TONS of people out there writing code and opening the source. These people don’t do it for company sponsorship or money or to improve their CV. They do it purely for the pleasure of someone else using it. It’s just that only a very tiny fraction becomes popular. That’s when the problems start. Some may see their software being adopted by millions and may start feeling envious of those that make money using…

I agree with you. If you chose a license you regret, its kind of just your fault. Why would you pick MIT license for example, if you didn't want to allow free commercial use?

If you "make it free" and choose a very relaxed and unencumbered license to encourage adoption of your project and make it more popular. And then you do get popular, and start thinking people should now pay you, it seems like a bit of a lure. There are often alternative open source or closed source solutions. Yours might have reached this popularity not because it is the best, but because it is a good one that is also free and unencumbered.

And now like you said, you're free to change the license for all new code to something else, make it paid, closed, or any other restrictions. And that's fine.

That said, this is about licenses and having companies use your stuff and renumeration and all that.

I think a bigger issue, one that is justified, is the toxic interactions you might need to deal with if your open source project becomes big. People can act really entitled, when you don't owe them nothing. And I find it kind of weird how people will actually act more entitled to something that is offered to them free and open source, than if it was something they'd been paying for. Which kind of baffles me why that is.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#95

Post by raxxorrax »

01100011 wrote: post #74
_greim_ wrote: post #10

It isn't so much that companies are unfairly using others' work. It's that if you're going to use an open source tool in your business's codebase, you'll inevitably need support, upgrades, and bug-fixes, which translates into you putting pressure on the maintainers to do more work. By all means, use those people's previous work to put something amazing out into the world quickly. However, when you inevitably need hel…

> if you're going to use an open source tool in your business's codebase, you'll inevitably need support, upgrades, and bug-fixes I started using open source software and tools almost exactly 20 years ago in my career as an embedded software engineer. In exactly one case a company I worked for needed support from the developer, and in that case they hired the developer, ESR, to enhance his project, GPSd. Perhaps it i…

Agreed, although I am also mostly an embedded dev. I think the social aspect of GitHub creates most of the pressure and I do not like that it is seen as synonymous with open source.

Nobody stops you from just not adhering to requests. If people get nervous they can fork and do it themselves.

My company uses open source (who doesn't?) and would never think to place anything on open source devs.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#97

Post by Radim »

networkimprov wrote: post #67

The article fails to mention new companies that are trying to solve this problem, e.g. https://tidelift.com

Last I checked with Tidelift, they target primarily web OSS that's truly ubiquitous – think vue.js, Angular, Python requests and similar. Their $$$ reward is based on installation numbers across Tidelift's subscriber base, not value added or cost saved.

Definitely not a model that would help most (read: more niche) open source developers.

For example, I maintain a Python library with 10k+ Github stars and millions of monthly downloads, and was told by Tidelift it's not even on their radar. Zero reward in Tidelift's reward system.

Which is not to say they're not helpful to others, they might be. Just to manage your expectations vs their marketing.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#98

Post by raxxorrax »

apatters wrote: post #68
_greim_ wrote: post #10

It isn't so much that companies are unfairly using others' work. It's that if you're going to use an open source tool in your business's codebase, you'll inevitably need support, upgrades, and bug-fixes, which translates into you putting pressure on the maintainers to do more work. By all means, use those people's previous work to put something amazing out into the world quickly. However, when you inevitably need hel…

Something I never understood is why don't more maintainers just post the rate at which they'd be willing to do the work other people want? I suspect very few open source maintainers are doing so well financially that there's NO rate they would accept to perform other people's requests for their own project. Whatever number it would take to motivate you to do the work, just put it out there. Aside from the fact that y…

I can only speak for my projects that maybe 5-10 people use because they are rather specialized and nothing special. I simply don't want to be hired. I have a job and my projects are for fun.

I am no idealist on these issues and earning your keeps as a open source developer sounds really good. But there is a difference between hobby and job, even if you can bring it close together ideally. But for hobbies I prefer to set any obligations myself.

Of course I could set my rate to a large number, but I think it is important that people understand the motivation behind some projects and that is learning, having fun coding, sharing or something else, depends on the individual I guess. Saying 'no' can still take time...

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#99

Post by pabs3 »

cageface wrote: post #44
andi999 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not from legal, but too me there the problem would be: you use a product, but you dont 'buy' it, you 'donate' to the guy who made it, who is also 'super nice' and fixes some stuff about the product you need. This looks like a work/service/purchase agreement in disguise. Actually you dont want that to be possible.

From what I gathered the problem is often that most corporate legal departments are overworked so small donations to open source projects are just never high priority enough to displace other tasks they have in their queue.

Would making them large donations solve the problem there? ;)

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#100

Post by pabs3 »

rectang wrote: post #55
pabs3 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "leechers" are part of the ecosystem of the project too, putting down people who haven't yet started to contribute is a sure way to sour your project in their minds and prevent them from ever trying to answer other folks support questions, let alone contribute code to the project. So don't try to divide the community like that, instead treat everyone as future contributors and create spaces for them to start cont…

What has become clear over time is that most users don't contribute meaningfully to open source projects. The burden falls almost entirely on core maintainers. From the article: > But, with the exception of some big projects—like Linux—the labor involved isn't particularly communal. Most are like Bootstrap, where the majority of the work landed on a tiny team of people. Offering unlimited free support is guaranteeing…

Don't offer unlimited free support, create a space where users can and do help out answering support questions and turning them into well-researched actionable bug reports, which can be turned into well-written pull requests, which turn into knowledgable and ongoing codebase contributors. Its (one of) the marketing funnel but for open source contribution.
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