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I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

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Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#91

Post by WalterBright »

stinos wrote: post #84
WalterBright wrote: post #56

I wouldn't buy a house with such a system in it, and I doubt anybody else will, either. Who wants to become an expert on these systems just to turn the lights on? Not a chance. I considered these systems when my house was built, and am very glad I didn't get them. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I replace a bulb now and then. That's it! I'm very happy with it. But what I did…

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every room, most even multiple times, just put it in walls/cailings/whatever worked and all 40 or so sockets work just fine. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I run a star configuration for switches and light points, where all swi…

Crosstalk is when two wires are close together, one induces a voltage in the other (it's how transformers work). The trouble with house wiring is if you run a phone line parallel and close to an A/C line, it will induce a 60 cycle hum in the phone line, which will drive you utterly mad.

The electrician was installing the cat3 phone wires in the same holes as the A/C wires. It was guaranteed to induce a hum.

The correct approach is to keep the low voltage wires as far from the A/C as you can, and if they cross, keep the crossing at 90 degrees. Don't run them in parallel unless they are separated by feet (plural). If you have to, you can run them in grounded metal conduit as a shield.

I probably went overboard on this, but doing it inadequately meant 60 cycle humming on the phone lines and an utterly ghastly bill to rip the walls up and fix it.

He also was installing cat3 (POTS cable) and R59 cable (1970's cable TV stuff). I pulled that all out and threw it in the trash, putting in cat5 (cat5e and cat6 are better, but weren't available then) and quad-shielded RG6 cable.

Getting the best cable available cost maybe 20 or 30 dollars more, so it's crazy not to do it. The network and cable speeds have all increased dramatically since I installed it, and the cables have all worked like a champ.

Even the cat5 cables are happily carrying gigabit Ethernet.

I have a couple plugboards in the basement where all the wires terminate.

I did the whole thing for less than a grand. If an electrician had done it, it likely would have been 10 or 20x more.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#92

Post by jackweirdy »

vr46 wrote: post #27

What is the point of trying to wirelessly link up a system that needs so much wiring in the first place, including electricity? This seems moronic, unless it’s for fun. And even then it’s pretty stupid.

Retrofitting new wires to every light fixture and switch in a house is unenviable. In some cases, impossible. Laminate floors can deprive you of subfloor access of a whole floor, running cables through existing stud walls is difficult at the best of times...

Wirelessly linked smoke alarms are becoming extremely common now in the UK because outside a narrow envelope building regulations want linked alarms (linked either wired or wirelessly) on every floor. Imagine converting a basement and attic of a 1800s victorian house, and having to find a way to run a new cable from the roof of the attic to the ceiling of the basement. So instead it's a relatively dumb chip which shouts 'fire' on an unlicensed frequency block and a great deal of complexity is saved.

There is a chance you could do here what powerline adapters do, and use the ground wire to communicate. But they are notoriously inconsistent and there's any number of reasons it wouldn't work

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#93

Post by drcongo »

m4tthumphrey wrote: post #71
VBprogrammer wrote: post #38

I stayed clear of smart appliances for a long time for the reasons I'm sure we're all well aware of. However, recently we had our central heating boiler changed and my partner was very keen on having Hive. It's almost useless. I can't believe how incompetently it seems to have been designed. Essentially there are three parts, a receiver connected to the boiler, a network bride connected to the router and the thermost…

I have to say my experience with Hive has been nothing but exceptional. All the way from having it installed back in 2016 (when we moved in) to this day when it came on for an hour this morning. The controller is right next to the boiler in the eaves of my house and is connected via ethernet through a TP-Link TL-PA9020P powerline adaptor. In all fairness the thermostat is very close to the receiver, in the landing, s…

I've had a Hive since, I think, late 2013 and my experience is a little closer to the GP's. The Hive hub crashes and needs a hard reboot on a very regular basis, at least once per month, sometimes 4 times a week.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#94

Post by fyfy18 »

Does anyone here have any experience with KNX? It seems like the best wired system (without being locked into a single manufacturer), but from what I understand it's expensive and not aimed at DIYers.

For context I'm in the process of building a house and like OP am considering Shelly modules, but it seems a bit silly to go wireless when I am doing everything from scratch.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#95

Post by adriancr »

Maha-pudma wrote: post #61

I don't get it. What's the point in these systems? Genuinely. Why would I ever need this? Just like a "smart" doorbell, fridge, meter. I would love for someone to be able to explain the benefits to me over the normal, cheap, completely working "dump" version. The only "smart" device I own is a TV and it is crap, worse thing I've ever bought.

Note, this is what I use things but I also have dumb switches to control if things fail. I also dont put control in hard to reach places. I just use outdoor sensors + smart bulbs.

Use case 1: Open all lights in yard at night when exterior gate is open or motion detected. Shut off after set amount of time of no activity.

Use case 2: light in shed/basement/garage on when door is open.

Use case 3: control lights via telegram / get notifications as alarm system.

Use case 4: water sensors anywhere you can get a leak. (have been flooded while away)

Use case 5: you dont want to rewire the house but want to link multiple lights together.

Use case 6: you want to remotely enable lights outside from second floor to check what the dog is barking at.

I can go on.

What the guy did wrong was ignore failures and not have a way to deal with them

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#96

Post by ChrisMLane »

WalterBright wrote: post #56

I wouldn't buy a house with such a system in it, and I doubt anybody else will, either. Who wants to become an expert on these systems just to turn the lights on? Not a chance. I considered these systems when my house was built, and am very glad I didn't get them. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I replace a bulb now and then. That's it! I'm very happy with it. But what I did…

Could you explain what the star configuration is please? I'm not familiar with it and am currently assuming that just means cables to each wall from the ceiling.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#97

Post by WalterBright »

dkarp wrote: post #86
WalterBright wrote: post #63

I installed an automatic sprinkler system with several "regions". I struggled with that thing for years. Programming it required reading a hefty manual. The user interface was near the worst I'd ever seen (the worst is on my automated cat feeder). I was constantly repairing the lines, the heads, the valves, the control box. I'd winterize it, de-winterize it. The coyotes would chew on it. Finally I simply turned it of…

I've looked into automatic sprinkler systems with scheduling based on the weather or moisture sensors, but they to have too many failure modes: moisture sensors corroding, incorrect weather readings, blocked outlets. I'm now planning to use a simple drip irrigation system. A long hose with nozzles plugged into the mains water that has to be manually turned on. It may not be automatic, but turning things on and off wh…

You're right, a drip irrigation system is much better. You wouldn't have to run regions, either, just one system.

But watch out for squirrels and other fur-bearin varmints chewing on the pipes. I'd consider copper pipes. I was thinking about digging up my whole sprinkler system and replacing it all with copper pipes, but then just opted to abandon the whole thing.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#98

Post by WalterBright »

adriancr wrote: post #95
Maha-pudma wrote: post #61

I don't get it. What's the point in these systems? Genuinely. Why would I ever need this? Just like a "smart" doorbell, fridge, meter. I would love for someone to be able to explain the benefits to me over the normal, cheap, completely working "dump" version. The only "smart" device I own is a TV and it is crap, worse thing I've ever bought.

Note, this is what I use things but I also have dumb switches to control if things fail. I also dont put control in hard to reach places. I just use outdoor sensors + smart bulbs. Use case 1: Open all lights in yard at night when exterior gate is open or motion detected. Shut off after set amount of time of no activity. Use case 2: light in shed/basement/garage on when door is open. Use case 3: control lights via tel…

I have a couple motion sensing lights. They randomly click on and off. P.O.S.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#99

Post by sfev »

I’ve been using lightwaverf for around 10 years now and find it to be a decent solution. I originally bought a light switch and some of their pass through plugs, but recently I’ve been expanding with more light switches and a relay, mostly to control hard-to-reach-the-switch things like outside lights but now I’m thinking about replacing more indoor lights and sockets for a more complete solution

Lighting-wise their dimmers just replace your regular dimmers, though they are push buttons rather than switches and they have led indicators on them (that you can turn off). They work without the hub, not that the hub has ever failed for me

I’ve never had a problem with range like tfa suggests, even in places that struggle to get a wifi signal and out in the garden (125 year old Victorian terrace over 3 floors)

Their stuff is fairly expensive but my oldest equipment is maybe 10 years old now, still works well and is compatible with the newer generation. My wife is even coming around to it - being able to say “Alexa turn on garden lights” instead of trudging outside in the rain to turn them on has convinced her I think!

If/when we move I can mostly just put the old light switches back in and a) keep my kit for the next house and b) not have to subject the new owners to my home automation addiction

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#100

Post by hondadriver »

WalterBright wrote: post #91
stinos wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every room, most even multiple times, just put it in walls/cailings/whatever worked and all 40 or so sockets work just fine. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I run a star configuration for switches and light points, where all swi…

Crosstalk is when two wires are close together, one induces a voltage in the other (it's how transformers work). The trouble with house wiring is if you run a phone line parallel and close to an A/C line, it will induce a 60 cycle hum in the phone line, which will drive you utterly mad. The electrician was installing the cat3 phone wires in the same holes as the A/C wires. It was guaranteed to induce a hum. The corre…

Here in The Netherlands and probably other parts of Europe, you are not allowed to run electricity and network or phone cables through the same tubes. Also the number of wires allowed in a single tube is limited.

Many houses have concrete walls, floors and ceilings, so you don't run extra tubes easily...

Reconfiguring switches is next to impossible and via existing switch wires you can dim/switch the lights but not change colour(temperature).

So here the original switches are removed and the connection is bridged (always on) and battery/kinectic powered ZigBee switches control the lights directly, even if the gateway is down.

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