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Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

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Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#91

Post by benjaminjosephw »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #37

The only problem with blind selection, is that, sooner or later, the race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/fitness/attractiveness/age (I'm an old fart, so I can tell you a thing or two about ageism in tech) becomes apparent. I have heard story after story from peers (around my age), about passing numerous rounds of phone and test interviews, only to see the interviewer's face fall, as soon as they walk in the door.…

This is a really helpful framing of the same problem that hopefully everyone can relate to. You can be great at your job but still have fewer opportunities because of how you're perceived by the majority group.

Getting the hiring biases out of the way early makes sense to me. The downside is that this doesn't change the broader situation or challenge it in anyway. It just says: "go ahead and apply your biases if you have them". It think, in some ways, this practice could make things a lot worse overall. It allows companies to massage their diversity metrics in ways that are acceptable and not at all challenging to the notion of what "acceptable diversity" looks like.

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#92

Post by tdevito »

jackfrodo wrote: post #20
einpoklum wrote: post #4

Key point of the abstract: Women: +9 to +10% chance of callback relative to men Black, Hispanic, and Asian: -8 to -13% chance of callback relative to White people. Anyway, kudos (I guess?) to the researchers for choosing the absolutely most fashionable subject they could possibly study in this day and age.

"Fashionable"? Being so dismissive of the push for racial equality is deeply arrogant and small minded.

Yes, fashionable in that suggesting we live in a deeply unequal society(not true) shows that you're one of the "good guys". Its just a social signal and at this point people have been hearing/saying it for so long that most probably believe people should be judged by the color of their skin, rather than your personality.

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#93

Post by Communitivity »

HideousKojima wrote: post #60
Communitivity wrote: post #12

Surprising study results regarding women being more likely to receive a callback than men. From personal experience and the teams I've been on, women have always been in the minority, along the lines of 8-10 men for every two women. However, I am not in Silicon Valley. We need more studies in this area. I'd also like to see studies that include other possible sources of discrimination (gender identity, age) that are…

>From personal experience and the teams I've been on, women have always been in the [minority], along the lines of 8-10 men for every two women. That's because fewer women overall are applying for such jobs relative to men. Those that are applying are more likely to be hired.

That could be. I have seen women managers in charge of hiring who had a more balanced team. However, my anecdotal experiences are nowhere near enough of a sample to draw real conclusions from.

If there are fewer women going into tech, that also may represent a problem. Here I have more personal experience, as my daughter is interested in digital graphic design and programming. She has faced criticism for this choice from peers, and from teachers, and online. Several people commented that the tech world is too hard for women. Perhaps fewer women are going into tech because they are being discouraged at a young age, if this pattern of discouragement turns out to be widespread.

There are some efforts to fix this that have been getting more attention, including Girls Who Code [https://girlswhocode.org].

Also, thanks for the s/majority/minority catch. I've edited the original post to fix.

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#94

Post by CydeWeys »

ginko wrote: post #13
einpoklum wrote: post #4

Key point of the abstract: Women: +9 to +10% chance of callback relative to men Black, Hispanic, and Asian: -8 to -13% chance of callback relative to White people. Anyway, kudos (I guess?) to the researchers for choosing the absolutely most fashionable subject they could possibly study in this day and age.

Would be interesting to separate Asian applicants into their own group.

And also separating out Indian, Chinese, and Other Asian. The majority of many tech workforces are broadly Asian, along with over half of the global population. It doesn't make sense to lump them all in together. It may be acceptable in other industries in the US where Asian representation is in line with the US standard of ~6%, but certainly not in tech. If a single bucket accounts for more than half of your entire sample, and that bucket can trivially be broken down further into sub-buckets, then you should absolutely do so.

This is something that tech in particular just keeps getting wrong over and over. E.g. look at the 2019 Google diversity report [1] -- on page 52 it shows that 55.5% of new tech hires in the most recent year were Asian, vs 0.7% for the smallest category (Native American). Break out that 55.5%, please!

[1] https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/25badfc6b6d1b33f...

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#95

Post by Communitivity »

jackfrodo wrote: post #23
Communitivity wrote: post #12

Surprising study results regarding women being more likely to receive a callback than men. From personal experience and the teams I've been on, women have always been in the minority, along the lines of 8-10 men for every two women. However, I am not in Silicon Valley. We need more studies in this area. I'd also like to see studies that include other possible sources of discrimination (gender identity, age) that are…

There's a contradiction in your second sentence, I'm not sure what your meaning is. >women have always been in the majority, along the lines of 8-10 men for every two women.

Yes, thanks - it was meant to be minority. I've fixed in the original post.

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#96

Post by secondcoming »

giantg2 wrote: post #74
secondcoming wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where candidates of underrepresented groups are dissuaded by a lack of pre-existing representation I don't understand this persepective from candidates. The job market must be really good if they can use this as a metric for pursuing a job opportunity. I was the only person from my country when I joined my current employer. It never even crossed my mind that it could be an issue. There was also a post on HN a few m…

At my company, you have a leg up if you fit one of the diversity metrics and are applying for a job. I've worked on teams where I'm the only one of my race. I've been on group projects where I'm the only one of my gender. Based on the conversations I've heard on some of the teams I've been on, I have a minority political view and culture/lifestyle as well. It's almost never a problem unless you believe or think it is…

By 'chicken and egg' I meant that employers can't really do much about minority candidates not accepting a job offer because there aren't any/enough of that candidate's gender/race already employed.

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#97

Post by CincinnatiMan »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #37

The only problem with blind selection, is that, sooner or later, the race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/fitness/attractiveness/age (I'm an old fart, so I can tell you a thing or two about ageism in tech) becomes apparent. I have heard story after story from peers (around my age), about passing numerous rounds of phone and test interviews, only to see the interviewer's face fall, as soon as they walk in the door.…

I started reading this, then halfway through got bored and thought to myself “I wonder if this is that Chris Marshall user”. Sure enough, it is :).

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#98

Post by [deleted] »

bluntfang wrote: post #47
monoideism wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if they don't capitalize "white", because that's what white supremacists do, what does that say about capitalizing "black"? A good number of the people pushing the "Black" spelling are openly Afrocentric, or profess to be.

I dunno man, are black people systemically killing other ethnic groups in America right now? Do they have a history of genocide and slavery on the scale of white people? Do we see a bunch of black people doing the black equivalent of Nazi salutes on the side of the road around the country?

[deleted]

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#99

Post by giantg2 »

Communitivity wrote: post #12

Surprising study results regarding women being more likely to receive a callback than men. From personal experience and the teams I've been on, women have always been in the minority, along the lines of 8-10 men for every two women. However, I am not in Silicon Valley. We need more studies in this area. I'd also like to see studies that include other possible sources of discrimination (gender identity, age) that are…

"We need more studies in this area. I'd also like to see studies that include other possible sources of discrimination"

I'd love to see this based on culture and personality too.

I've been on teams that seem to look down on you if you live within your means and thus aren't able to fully participate in discussing the latest gadgets, like people's new Tesla's and BMWs when you drive a no-frills work truck that doesn't even have blue tooth. I actually had a manager tell me I need to discuss gadgets and sports more with my coworkers. Even if I like gadgets, I like the lower cost and hands on stuff like setting up a Zoneminder server rather than installing a Ring.

I'm also a quiet person who tries to focus on work when at work. I speak up when I have ideas or can help out. Yet I'm constantly being told to speak up and form stronger relationships with my team. I feel we have a good working relationship. Why can't I value them as a coworker and have them value me based on our work interaction?

Re: Gender and Race Preferences in Hiring at Silicon Valley Tech Firms [pdf]

#100

Post by nashalo_nighly »

username90 wrote: post #71
throwaway2245 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most female candidates are highly, highly sought-after, and are quickly hired by top tech companies Let's say we believe that women are on average equally as capable of men, and we know there are maybe 10-20% as many women in the industry. Are those 10-20% women roughly as good as the average man, or are they roughly as good as the top 10-20% of men? Have they had the same experience as average men, or have they fo…

Your assumption relies on the women getting into the field are the best women. I don't see why that would be true. The fields with many women like law, medicine or psychology are much harder to get into than computer science or engineering so most of the best women likely ends up there.

Given that as a woman you don’t benefit from the “competency bias” and constantly has to prove yourself (which is not necessarily bad), combined with the fact that many women simply walk out of careers in computer science and physics because of sexism/harassment, you could consider that the women left are indeed more competent than the average man in the industry.
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