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The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

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Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter can have a very high signal-to-noise ratio if you follow the right people.

Can it? Last I used it (which was a long time ago) Twitter itself added noise to my feed.

realtwitter.com is a redirect to the search query you want, and then click "Latest".

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#92
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, poll people who invest in YC start-ups if they'd be willing to invest in start-ups that improve upon HackerNews forums. That should generate a few million. Then hire somebody with a proven track record to oversee proposals for additions to existing HackerNews. In other words, get money, then crowdsource ideas, then pay people to implement ideas with most votes, then provide beta tests, then provide HackerNews ad…

That's not a concrete suggestion, but rather a meta-strategy for getting those. Alas, I think it would run up against hard economics super quickly. Forums like HN aren't big businesses, and efforts to make them into big businesses exert pressures under which they turn into something else. This is probably the most important thing for understanding HN, actually: it ended up in a sweet spot where it makes sense for YC…

Since you're soliciting them, here's a few concrete suggestions:

- Avatars. A consistent, recognizable image can go a long way from transforming a faceless internet post into something closer to a person you recognize and would hesitate to harm. With enough time and exposure, usernames can work for this (everyone recognizes when tptacek, or moxie, or you post), but avatars supercharge it. People hate changes to the site UX, so maybe put it behind a profile option that's defaulted to 'off' - then, only people who care about seeing them do. Of course, this would increase the moderation burden - people using offensive avatars, etc, but I think it could help.

- Heads on pikes. A weekly/monthly/ongoing/whatever roundup of notable bad actions which people have been moderated for. This should be limited to interesting and informative cases - not spam, piracy, CSAM, etc, but legitimate humans engaging in bad-faith actions, flame wars, etc. Having negative examples to avoid can help a community understand what is and isn't appropriate in a more concrete way than a dry set of rules. And seeing people be punished for violating those rules in a public way can have a deterrent effect. Making these public works better than just downvotes, because downvotes ultimately end up hiding content.

- Exemplars on pedestals. The obvious counterpart to negative examples is positive examples. In a way, the upvote system already does something like this, but it's not the same as officially-sanctioned recognition from the staff. A very simple approach might be to give you / other staff members (maybe even high karma users/yc founders) a button on each comment that highlights it as a positive example worth emulating - maybe changing the text color in css of the username/time stamp to show that it's been recognized.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#93
post #21

Obligatory appreciation post for dang. Swift invisible action when facing bad faith actors; sporadic public call outs for quick attitude correction; and consistent helpful presence like multi-page reminders and clarifications on the inner workings of this forum. I find your style of moderation to be the golden standard on how to foster a healthy online community.

I will join. I was shadow-banned or something years ago and he told me I am posting into the void. Was really nice to know.

So he gets to shadowban you and then get credit for telling you he issued a secret crazy punishment?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#94
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, poll people who invest in YC start-ups if they'd be willing to invest in start-ups that improve upon HackerNews forums. That should generate a few million. Then hire somebody with a proven track record to oversee proposals for additions to existing HackerNews. In other words, get money, then crowdsource ideas, then pay people to implement ideas with most votes, then provide beta tests, then provide HackerNews ad…

That's not a concrete suggestion, but rather a meta-strategy for getting those. Alas, I think it would run up against hard economics super quickly. Forums like HN aren't big businesses, and efforts to make them into big businesses exert pressures under which they turn into something else. This is probably the most important thing for understanding HN, actually: it ended up in a sweet spot where it makes sense for YC…

Agreed on not creating silos.

Adding User 'flair' is perhaps a viable option, where users can simply tag other users with a short description. That enables both properties - avoiding discourse you find troubling, and allowing users to highlight those that they find enlightening.

Freedom of speech works well when paired with freedom to listen. Removing content (even if only from a user's view) only deepens the filter bubbles we're being shaped by.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#95
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relatedly (since we've got you here), rather than blocking bad users it would be nice to be able to tag specific users in a way that shows up on the comment feed. For example, there are a few users whose comments consistently impress me with their depth, and whose commentary in a thread often flags a deeper conversation on a topic. It might just be because I have a terrible memory for usernames, but it would be nice…

Do you mean a private list of your own tags that the UI would then display to you? Interesting idea.

It's a great idea that will probably damage the community. I do something like this privately, or did until earlier this year, when I stopped because it (a) was making it hard for me to read people's comments rather than surveil threads for specific tags and (b) really drove me to invest time in tagging people, which is unproductive since I know so little about the people commenting here and really have no business bucketing them.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#96
post #19
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had a second stealth account to join discussions Im sure its plenty stimulating. But even just reading might be enough. HN is full of lurkers who spend an insane amount of time here. edit: Im not saying the moderators have stealth accounts!

That does not seem at all like Dan's style.

Yes. While it's never really been stealth [1], Dan does still use gruseom occasionally (not for the above purposes): https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=gruseom

[1] https://blog.ycombinator.com/meet-the-people-taking-over-hac... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7493856

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#97
Dang's done a super great job, especially recently with some huge threads related to the election.

I would like to raise one point that's tangentially related: why is it not easier to find a page explaining the community guidelines ? AFAIK you have to look them up yourself.

The navbar has links to new, threads, past, comments, ask, show, jobs and submit, but none of them even give a clear redirect link to get to the guidelines ... wouldn't it make sense to add them to nav, or configure the site such that they're displayed the first time you visit ? Always seemed a bit funny to me from a design perspective.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#98
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relatedly (since we've got you here), rather than blocking bad users it would be nice to be able to tag specific users in a way that shows up on the comment feed. For example, there are a few users whose comments consistently impress me with their depth, and whose commentary in a thread often flags a deeper conversation on a topic. It might just be because I have a terrible memory for usernames, but it would be nice…

Do you mean a private list of your own tags that the UI would then display to you? Interesting idea.

Sounds a lot like this user script for metafilter http://mefiwiki.com/wiki/UserNotes

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#99
The one thing I did notice in the article is that there is a a forum dedicated to outrageous things HN says. I mean, I always knew this is a public forum and whatnot, but I thought it has less mainstream appeal, which is the reason the conversation don't devolve easily into name calling if fallacies don't work ( or fallacies are called out for what they are ).

edit: made it more generic

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#100
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent years of my life working with him, directly and indirectly. I got to know him on a personal level. None of your business, perhaps, but notice not one thank-you in this entire thread has been directed at sctb, and most readers probably have no clue who I’m talking about. That’s how little recognition he got. Scott Bell was instrumental to the business of Hacker News. He contributed in a thousand ways, both sma…

You did not spend "years of your life" working with Scott. You have, though, spent years trying to stir up trouble on HN in an astonishing variety of frankly very creative ways. This misleading story is the latest in that long sequence. Although we've banned you many times in many incarnations, we've always been generous with letting you back into the community—indeed, generous at a level that most people simply woul…

Dan, there is no drama here. No reasonable person could read what I wrote and interpret it as drama. You also don’t get to tell me who I am friends with, or how I regard them. I don’t know what your relationship was to Scott, but mine was an association formed over many years. You may not think that “friends over the internet” are real, but many would disagree.

You are threatening to ban a community member simply for thanking Scott for the many ways he helped, and attempting to give some recognition to the tremendous work he put in. At some point I simply have to raise my arms and say “Ok, if you’re going to be completely unreasonable, even to the point of publicly lying, then I have no choice but to surrender.”

I am still astonished that you claimed that I didn’t spend years of my life working with Scott. He was my friend; I submitted nearly 200 pull requests to https://github.com/sctb/lumen/pulls dating back to 2017. He was also there for me during a dark period of my life, and that small act of kindness has stayed with me since.

I don’t understand your fixation with me. I challenge you to point out a single comment I’ve made, over the last year, that is in violation of any of the HN guidelines to such an egregious extent that a permanent ban is warranted.

I agree that this is a complete distraction from the overall goal of keeping HN happy and growing. So I propose that if you want this to stop, whatever “this” is, then you either need to explain in detail what it is I am doing wrong, or you simply must ban me and be done with it. And can you really argue that a ban is moral and justified on that basis?

I have done nothing to harm this community. Any reader who goes over my comments and seriously reads them would disagree with you that my presence here is harmful. YC founders have vouched for me, to you. I have 2k followers on twitter who seem to like what I’m doing. And I have absolutely no idea why you are fixated on me. From my point of view, you have harassed me for years for seemingly harmless comments. My wife has read almost everything I’ve written, and has proofread it, and she’s one of the smartest hackers I know; she agrees that I haven’t done anything wrong here.

You haven’t welcomed me back into anywhere. You permit me to post comments and to write for you at your pleasure. And I have tried hard to please you. But if you would simply leave me alone and get over the past — which is now three years past — then everything would be fine.

Your opinion has enormous influence. People will blindly believe pretty much anything you write. So you’ve now put me in a position of saying nothing and keeping my head down, or saying that Scott was indeed my friend and that we did indeed work together for years, as anyone with two eyes can see in Lumen’s pull request history.

In summary, I am happy to toe the line and do exactly what you want — you yourself have said that “we unban those who give us a reason to believe they will follow the rules,” and I submit that I have given you ample reason to believe I will. But if you want me to alter my behavior, then what exactly do you want me to do? Not write “Scott Bell was cool as heck, and it was fun to do some lisp hacking with him”?

This has gone on long enough. If this is to be my final reply to HN, then I suppose it’s fitting that it’s addressed to you: please relax, re-read my comments (and remember to assume good faith), and believe me when I say that I am trying, hard, to do what you want.

I asked my wife for advice on whether I should say anything, or leave this alone. She said she didn’t have any good advice for me, but that she would reply. She said that this is a stupid thing to do, and the fastest way to lose all the privileges I’ve worked hard to regain, but that she would do it, on the basis of “her brain would implode if she didn’t say anything.” And that’s always been good enough a reason for me.

With that, I suppose I’ll check tomorrow to see what happened. I hope you have a good day. I am sorry that my writing wasn’t perfectly happy and pleasant, but it was real.

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