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A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

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Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#91

Post by ogre_codes »

giantg2 wrote: post #61
ogre_codes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a really good solution for amicable divorces. When there is a lot of conflict in the relationship, it's unlikely to work well. And really the latter describes most divorces I've seen. It seems like there is almost always one spouse who doesn't want to play well at the end.

It also requires the people involved be making a good bit of money, or having previously lived well below their means. Whoever is not staying with the child at that time needs a place to live, which generally costs a significant amount, even for a small apartment.

Indeed, basically you need 3 residences or 2 shared residences and people who are tolerable to live in the same place with you (even if not at the same time). All of this takes money and the ability to tolerate someone you couldn't live with previously.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#92

Post by commandlinefan »

jaclaz wrote: post #54
commandlinefan wrote: post #32

Wait, a web developer makes 1600 Euros but a "shop assistant" makes 3/4 of that?

Yep, they are a tad bit on the "extreme", but not that much off, if you asked me, I would have answered, from personal knowledge (these are "net" income, i.e. with income tax already paid): shop assistant: 1,000-1,100 Euro/month but for 13 months of wage[0] web designer[1]: 1,800-2,200 Euro/month but for 11 months of work only [0] the 13th month wage is only part of the full month wage, but for low pays, like 1,000-1…

> the definition of web designer

Ah, good point - usually people who call themselves "web designers" in the US have degrees in CS and make comfortable 6-figure salaries.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#93

Post by mlang23 »

vkou wrote: post #25
stickyricky wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because that social expectation is there [...] The court should temper society's vices not empower them.

The court should rule with a bias in favour of the person who had to sacrifice their career to care for the children, regardless of their gender.

This assumes that everyone caring for children is automatically "sacrificing their career". That is not true. There are still women who are not really interested in persuing a career they'd need to sacrifice to care for a child. So simply observing the "career status" of both parties is definitely not enough for a fair ruling.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#94

Post by viklove »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #42
outime wrote: post #11

It happens a lot in Spain as well. I met many people (always men) who had to deal with similar situations. Unfortunately in some countries, forming a family can really go south for the guys if the woman decides so.

Men's weak standing in child custody cases is tied to the societal norms and practices that make men take less interest in their own children overall. Ironically, this widespread disinterest in child care is what have allowed women to get these rights in the first place, because the late 1800's was certainly not a period of feminist dominion.

The 1800s were not a period of domination for either gender -- by any measure. Pretty much every era has been a period of domination for the wealthy and ruling class. Within that wealthy and ruling class (which accounts for less than 1% of the population) you may be able to have a discussion about gender, but the fact remains that the vast majority of men and women -- for all of history -- have been subjugated by the ruling class.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#95

Post by vkou »

mlang23 wrote: post #93
vkou wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court should rule with a bias in favour of the person who had to sacrifice their career to care for the children, regardless of their gender.

This assumes that everyone caring for children is automatically "sacrificing their career". That is not true. There are still women who are not really interested in persuing a career they'd need to sacrifice to care for a child. So simply observing the "career status" of both parties is definitely not enough for a fair ruling.

Fortunately, we have... courts that can differentiate between the two.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#96

Post by julianmarq »

sigmaprimus wrote: post #58

I feel bad for this guy, unfortunately he is just at the beginning of the world of hurt and pain he most likely is goin to experience. Having gone through an ugly family breakup, I can attest to how painful and stressful it is for everyone. Especially once the courts get involved. From my experience the courts are very unsympathetic to any arguments outside the general consensus, almost to the point of being obtuse o…

> the courts are very unsympathetic to any arguments outside the general consensus, almost to the point of being obtuse or jaded.

What you said after this is not any more sympathetic.

> Childhood is important but it is not a lifetime, in some ways it is better to check ones ego and just step back and wait.

This is an astonishing display of lack of empathy for the unfairly estranged parent. Not having your child in your life is one of the worst forms of torture a person should not be forced to endure.

> Support the child as ordered by the courts

The courts are, as you said, obtuse and jaded. Not to mention very often biased.

> Accept that and live your best life

You can't, when you're a good parent, you can't "live your best life" if your child was torn away from you.

> after all You don't own the child

I'm trying to be charitable here, because the HN guidelines encourage steelmanning, but comparing "wanting to have your child in your life" with "thinking you own your child" is appalling, to put it mildly. I hope this is just very, very, unfortunate phrasing, because I could find no other way to read it.

> This can be much easier on the child than witnessing constant bickering, accusations and pettiness between the parents.

Being separated from a parent can have even more dire consequences on the child. And there actually are studies on that.

> might be wrong

You argued in favor of the extremely unfair status quo of the courts and tried to suggest it could be better for the child.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#97

Post by vkou »

giantg2 wrote: post #69
vkou wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please think about what you are saying for a minute. You are saying that if one of the parents sacrifices their future to care for the child, and the other does not, during a divorce, the latter does not owe the former anything. The better question is - why do you want to moat the latter parent moated from the duty of parenting so much? Or, if parenting is too complicated, here's a simple example. Bill marries Jill.…

That actually depends. Some states put a large weighting on lifestyle costs. So even if Jill is making tons of money, she probably won't be required to pay anything if she has been spending it on a BMW and other expensive things. Even if that were not the case, most states would not require alimony if Bill is still working. Also, some states would consider the education costs a gift and it would not entitle Bill to a…

> Also, some states would consider the education costs a gift and it would not entitle Bill to anything.

Would they consider rent, food, utilities, and everything else a gift too?

A marriage is a not a quid-pro-quo financial transaction. It is an entanglement of two people's lives. The purpose of divorce court is to unentangle those lives in a fair and equitable manner.

One person supporting the household, while the other mooches off them, and then divorcing right when they start becoming responsible for supporting the household is not a clean break with zero financial entanglements.

Imagine if instead of pouring money into an education, Bill was supporting Jill as she was building a startup. He kept the family afloat, he poured money into it, while it was running at a loss - and then, right as it turns profitable, she leaves him with nothing.

Would that be fair and equitable? If not, why is a high-earning education any different? [1]

[1] The difference is obviously, that in this case, the startup's ownership would be split between the two spouses, with the spouse that financially supported the founder receiving a portion of it - probably not a 50/50 portion, but some portion nevertheless. An education's ownership can't be split... But the wages derived from an education can be.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#98

Post by polotics »

tathougies wrote: post #56
xenocratus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any studies that can support your claims that the mental health crisis, lack of grit etc. are due to divorce?

A study would require us to run an experiment that takes two groups of families that are equivalent along some metrics, and then forcibly separates one subgroup, while letting the other remain intact. Obviously this is extremely unethical. So no, there are no studies directly on this, just as there are no studies on how divorce has no effect on children. The fact is that when the first decision was made to allow no-f…

I am a child of the first ever no-fault divorce in a western European country I won't name. It was a while ago, mid 80's. I estimate it stole 10 years of my life, led me to have to learn quite early a lot more psychology than I ever should have had to. My brother is a social write-off, unable to work. On the upside I am better at gauging mental health issues than several practicing medical doctors, nurses that I know. ... To everyone out there: - Getting someone to drink alcohol is a way to sort out narcissist psychopaths (avoid/destroy) from sociopaths (hug/fix). - Anyone with some brains will have some schizoid traits at tine, watch carefully, get help early. - Illnesses (Lyme, thyroid, many others) that affect behaviour will be gladly ignored by profiteering psychologists and pill- peddling quacks. - Having a child is a wonderful thing, and don't worry too much, whatever happens nature (DNA, luck) beats nurture (divorce, sick societies) as long as nutrition and germs allow for it.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#99

Post by vkou »

arkitaip wrote: post #22
roflc0ptic wrote: post #7

I don't have any strong opinions about the fairness or unfairness of divorce laws around parenting, not in the US and certainly not in Italy. However, I was recently a very close witness to some divorce proceedings involving my girlfriend and the end of her polyamorous marriage, and boy, oh boy. The husband made the decision to make the divorce as painful as possible (falsifying evidence, perjuring himself) to try to…

The problem is that marriage is one of those very few relationships that's design to be all-in or not exist at all. Even signing something like a prenup is seen as incredibly suspicious. All your financial decisions have to be based on the fact that you and your partner are going to stay together til death do you part.

Everyone who gets married signs a pre-nup.

The difference is that a few people people pay to have a custom one drafted for them, and everyone else just accepts whatever default one their jurisdiction provides.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#100

Post by giantg2 »

vkou wrote: post #97
giantg2 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually depends. Some states put a large weighting on lifestyle costs. So even if Jill is making tons of money, she probably won't be required to pay anything if she has been spending it on a BMW and other expensive things. Even if that were not the case, most states would not require alimony if Bill is still working. Also, some states would consider the education costs a gift and it would not entitle Bill to a…

> Also, some states would consider the education costs a gift and it would not entitle Bill to anything. Would they consider rent, food, utilities, and everything else a gift too? A marriage is a not a quid-pro-quo financial transaction. It is an entanglement of two people's lives. The purpose of divorce court is to unentangle those lives in a fair and equitable manner. One person supporting the household, while the…

I take issue with your statement on divorce being fair and equitable. Even if that is the stated purpose, it's rarely the outcome. In most instances I feel that fair and equitable are often opposing outcomes in a divorce. Is it fair to split the assets 50/50? Is that equitable? How do you even measure the equity for non-monetary contributions? Now, how do you account for whether or not the person would have needed to perform the same tasks outside of the marriage (cooking for themself vs cooking for two)? Most of the court's solutions for this are either based on inflexible formulas or on the emotions and bias of the judge.

Your statement about credit for paying all the utilities is not how it works. In fact, that can work against you. Like I stated before, lifestyle can be a big part of the decision. The spouse paying all the bills may still be required to pay many of them because the other person has a lifestyle the court wants to preserve. Take for example the divorce in California where a man had a porn addiction and the wife was ordered to pay alimony to continue supporting that addiction.

Your example of a startup is not the same. A startup is property, which can be sold and has inherent value. Being acquired during the marriage, that makes it marital property.

Coming back to your previous comment, do you really think that is a fair split at 50/50 even though one person provided the intellectual capital and work? That would be devastating to most people to have their "baby" of a company ripped from them to the point where they no longer have majority ownership.

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