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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#91

Post by Apocryphon »

jackcosgrove wrote: post #69
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

How are you defining tech? If you include IT workers and programmers in certain non-technology companies, I think their position could be improved by unionization. If you include engineers working for technology companies, unionization is less needed. This group has good working conditions on the whole. Personally when I have been frustrated with corporate work-life, it is usually for reasons that unionization would…

> tech workers are paid well and we get to sit in comfortable chairs in air-conditioned offices all day long

One should definitely be thankful for the blessings and privileges one gets, but painting it in those terms overlooks that tech workers still have a lot of grievances. Maybe they're not as important as ones experienced by workers in other industries, but they're still valid. After all, we see articles on burnout and psychological stresses on HN every week.

> If management is not trying to fleece workers, why add the process of a union?

In addition to the general improving labor conditions issues that get brought up, I think unions could be interesting experiment in tech. The tech industry portrays itself as cutting-edge, progressive (not necessarily politically, but as a cultural outlook), empowering. Yet I've definitely seen situations where there was just constant alienation between employees and management over the latter's business decisions and product prioritizations. In those cases, what leverage can workers hold over management, besides just leave?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23535292

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#92

Post by goatinaboat »

dpc_pw wrote: post #27
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries.

Yet doctors and lawyers and pilots have strong unions in all but name. What do you suppose they know that we don’t?

Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders. What's good for shareholders is also good for a lot of tech employees.

I’m sorry but this is just naive. Preferred stock and dilution make shares owned by rank-and-file employees nothing more than a rounding error these days. It was different back in the 90s when all the myths around stock options were formed but those days are long gone.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#93

Post by cactus2093 »

sanxiyn wrote: post #38
dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power > I would rather see more laws universally protecting intellectual workers like e.g. non-enforcability of non-compete clauses and alikes One of this must be incorrect. If tech workers have good negotiating power, they should be able to get rid of non-compete clauses. If they can't, see, that's what union can do (a…

> If they can't, see, that's what union can do (at least try to negotiate) for you.

But we already have democratically elected representatives that can also do this for us. For instance in California, non-competes are already basically not enforceable thanks to legislative action.

As another example, see the lawsuits a few years ago that were ruled in favor of workers for wage fixing at Google and Apple.

The structures are already in place give these sorts of reasonable protections, why add another bureaucratic, big, slow, expensive, greedy organization into the mix when we can use the processes we already have? (If the argument is that government is not responsive enough, that's a problem for many other reasons too, let's fix it).

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#94

Post by oh_sigh »

So are tech workers treated better at kick starter than they are at, say, google or amazon, or even treated better than they were at Kickstarter pre-union? The only thing in the article I could really find was:

> Employees who are still with the company say that because of the union, management has been more receptive to worker grievances, especially now during the pandemic. Employees were able to ensure that staff who got laid off received severance packages and are currently in the process of hammering out a collective bargaining agreement.

But it isn't clear to me that employees who were laid off wouldn't receive severance packages if it wasn't for the union.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#95

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #80
Apocryphon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know your big fear is that SWE unions would push for anti-immigrant protectionism, but a cursory glance at HN reveals that the industry workers are disgruntled about everything from ageism to unpaid crunchtime to lack of compensation transparency to technical interviews to open offices (now a moot point) to HR inability to prevent sexism or racism. All issues that could potentially be more compelling to an actual S…

Admittedly, I did weaken a little when my friends told me about their experience at Caviar. It did feel like collective bargaining would have served them well. But yesterday I saw 1280 comments renewing my resolve¹. No, I will not build a big bomb and put it in the hands of a capricious mob. It sort of reminds me of the Sierra Club in SF. I recall it being some sort of enviro org but now all they discuss is housing a…

If you're unhappy with a direction of an organization, you may feel a moment of sadness, but then you can go and find likeminded people unhappy with the direction of the group and found a new one. fwiw, I don't see many comments in that thread calling for labor unions.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#96

Post by yibg »

ardy42 wrote: post #63
yibg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti union messaging or just they are more common place? Lots of examples of unions with rigid rules, corrupt practices etc. But so far everyone only points to the screen actors guild as a counter example. Are there many other unions like it?

> But so far everyone only points to the screen actors guild as a counter example. Are there many other unions like it? IIRC, there are in the movie industry. I think writers, directors, etc. all have their own unions. Also given the nature of construction jobs, I'd be curious how construction trade unions compare. Different companies in different industries can have quite different structures and cultures (e.g. McDo…

Certain what came before doesn't have to be what follows. Just that if the majority of unions people know are "bad" then the general view of unions will be negative too. Also it may be a bit of a hint on which way a particular union is more likely to turn out.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#97

Post by airza »

dpc_pw wrote: post #27
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

The thing that you seem to be missing is that you need labor organization to achieve those things en masse. The current 40 hour workweek we enjoy and the weekends we have off are because of the organized labor movement in the US.

If your choices are between working for one of several capital-owned tech conglomerates, or accepting their money for the runway to compete in the current business climate, can you really call that an even playing field?

The second and third order effects of labor unions are class consciousness, something that the people on this forum seem to constantly miss.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#98

Post by fatnoah »

goatinaboat wrote: post #92
dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Yet doctors and lawyers and pilots have strong unions in all but name. What do you suppose they know that we don’t? Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders. What's good for shareholders is also good for a lot of tech employees. I’m sorry but thi…

This is more likely to be true in the case of options or shares of private companies, but for public companies the value of the equity can at least be determined.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#99

Post by oh_sigh »

andlarry wrote: post #29
ry454 wrote: post #19

So how does it work for them? What's the typical pay rate in Kickstarter?

It seemed to help with severance when they got rid of 40% of their staff a few months after the union was formed [0]. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layo...

The article doesn't actually say that the union is responsible for employees getting severance packages. The closest thing to a direct effect of the union is that some union members were offered a buy-out package to quit.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#100

Post by dpc_pw »

Apocryphon wrote: post #57
dpc_pw wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that negotiating power is not equal and situation is not perfect. Part of the reason is people being unaware, naive etc. to negotiate such a clause away in their contract. But a law like in CA is much better solution for cases like that, than dealing with Unions, IMO.

Unions can be a way for likeminded workers to pool together lobbying efforts. How would such a law right now be proposed and advanced? Certainly not by the lobbying arms of Big Tech.

I don't know who, and I agree that in theory they could.

In practice though, I fear, they will be overtaken by parasites, will advance bureaucratic BS, political opinions, protections for people who game the system, start mandating nonsense technological choices, hurt the efficiency, and just drive the well-paying industry into a ground, forcing capital to just move software companies into places that are better for business.

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