Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#91

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

andai wrote: post #67

kayodelycaon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bipolar, schizophrenia, and depression can also cause attention deficient. It is extremely common for children with Bipolar to be misdiagnosed as ADHD. Depression is usually easier to diagnose accurately. Schizophrenia can be hit or miss, depending on severity. In my case (I'm bipolar), psychosis was so much a part of my normal life that I was completely blind to it and my external symptoms weren't severe enough to b…

I'm curious if you're willing to share, how psychosis can be a part of a normal life, how you can have it for any length of time without it being recognizable? Did I understand correctly? Is it like, having a very unusual perception of reality, but not so unusual as to interfere with normal functioning? In people I know who have experienced it, it was very debilitating, so I hadn't even considered the possibility of…

[deleted]

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#92

Post by kekebo » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

cik2e wrote: post #76

treeman79 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took adderal for year. Completely life changing. My focus and energy level were on par with a normal persons. Unfortunately it was far too hard on the body. Started stroking out on it. Plus it interacted with almost every Medicane I’ve been prescribed. Tried vyvanse. Only one side effect. The deepest most profound sadness imaginable. Would sit for hours just “sad”. Nothing was bothering me. Worked fine aside from tha…

There are supplements, backed by research, that practically remove all of the negative side effects of adderall. To start with, the sadness you felt on vyvanse sounds like dopamine depletion. You want to be taking l-tyrosine to make sure there’s plenty of fuel for the amphetamine to work with. ALCAR + ALA counteract the psychomotor agitation and tolerance formation. Magnesium + zinc help with muscle cramping. Seleniu…

Can you recommend any sources for the mentioned supplements and their interaction with amphetamines?

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#93

Post by gavinray » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

cik2e wrote: post #76

treeman79 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took adderal for year. Completely life changing. My focus and energy level were on par with a normal persons. Unfortunately it was far too hard on the body. Started stroking out on it. Plus it interacted with almost every Medicane I’ve been prescribed. Tried vyvanse. Only one side effect. The deepest most profound sadness imaginable. Would sit for hours just “sad”. Nothing was bothering me. Worked fine aside from tha…

There are supplements, backed by research, that practically remove all of the negative side effects of adderall. To start with, the sadness you felt on vyvanse sounds like dopamine depletion. You want to be taking l-tyrosine to make sure there’s plenty of fuel for the amphetamine to work with. ALCAR + ALA counteract the psychomotor agitation and tolerance formation. Magnesium + zinc help with muscle cramping. Seleniu…

Dextromethorphan is the most potent anti-tolerance medication you can get your hands on, and it doesn't dampen any effects like ALCAR can.

I used to experiment heavily with all kinds of supplement routines and other nootropics when I had my Adderall Rx.

ALCAR works but like you mentioned, it does blunt things a bit.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03729128

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11373-006-9096-4

Dextromethorphan works for tolerance on things other than Amphetamine as well, but that's outside the scope of the conversation.

FWIW, the best I ever felt was on Adderall + 200mg l-Theanine + 10mg Noopept + 15mg Dextromethorphan.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#94

Post by jdavis703 » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #85

dx87 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the stigma against the medication, and the people who casually say "omg, I'm like, so ADD" really hurt the people who have actually been diagnosed with it. Depending on where you live, it can be difficult to find a psychiatrist willing to see you for a diagnoses and subsequent prescription because they think that you're a college kid wanting to abuse it or sell it. I had to call 4-5 different offices until I fo…

From my perspective, the thing that has hurt the credibility around ADHD diagnoses is the pretty blatant use by affluent parents to get diagnoses so they can get test-time extensions for their kids. ADHD diagnosis is much more strongly correlated with affluence than many other mental illnesses. Eliminating the 504 accommodation would be beneficial in my view.

Software engineering gave me the opportunity to go from being in the bottom economic class to the highest. And guess what, when I was a kid and college student I didn’t have the resources to obtain mental health treatment. Now that I’m a software engineer I can afford therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists that help me manage ADHD and bipolar. I’m still the same person. I just have more access now.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#95

Post by whimsicalism » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #94

whimsicalism wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my perspective, the thing that has hurt the credibility around ADHD diagnoses is the pretty blatant use by affluent parents to get diagnoses so they can get test-time extensions for their kids. ADHD diagnosis is much more strongly correlated with affluence than many other mental illnesses. Eliminating the 504 accommodation would be beneficial in my view.

Software engineering gave me the opportunity to go from being in the bottom economic class to the highest. And guess what, when I was a kid and college student I didn’t have the resources to obtain mental health treatment. Now that I’m a software engineer I can afford therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists that help me manage ADHD and bipolar. I’m still the same person. I just have more access now.

Sure - also the metrics measured in industry are not the same as the metrics measured in school.

What you're saying doesn't seem at odds with what I'm saying.

I would, however, be interested in seeing a study where they give kids with ADHD adderall and give kids without ADHD adderall and see if the test-score residual is statistically significantly higher for the ADHD group.

I have not seen any convincing experimental evidence that amphetamines are uniquely performance enhancing for those diagnosed with ADHD.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#96

Post by throwaway34241 » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

cpuguy83 wrote: post #24

treeman79 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took adderal for year. Completely life changing. My focus and energy level were on par with a normal persons. Unfortunately it was far too hard on the body. Started stroking out on it. Plus it interacted with almost every Medicane I’ve been prescribed. Tried vyvanse. Only one side effect. The deepest most profound sadness imaginable. Would sit for hours just “sad”. Nothing was bothering me. Worked fine aside from tha…

Having gone through this with my fam, given that you seem to have reactions to every med, have you considered it may be autism or aspurgers? ADHD and autism are often seen together, and reactions to other meds also seems to be fairly common. I just wanted to throw that out there because this realization that it's not just ADHD, not just anxiety, etc has changed our life dramatically... and there are meds that can hel…

Speaking about other possible conditions, anecdotally there are two people in my family who saw a psychiatrist for ADHD like symptoms, who years later were eventually diagnosed with sleep apnea (both with a normal BMI).

It seems like this is not uncommon, quoting Matthew Walker’s “Why We Sleep”:

> Based on recent surveys and clinical evaluations, we estimate that more than 50 percent of all children with an ADHD diagnosis actually have a sleep disorder, yet a small fraction know of their sleep condition and its ramifications.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#97

Post by treeman79 » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

cik2e wrote: post #76

treeman79 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took adderal for year. Completely life changing. My focus and energy level were on par with a normal persons. Unfortunately it was far too hard on the body. Started stroking out on it. Plus it interacted with almost every Medicane I’ve been prescribed. Tried vyvanse. Only one side effect. The deepest most profound sadness imaginable. Would sit for hours just “sad”. Nothing was bothering me. Worked fine aside from tha…

There are supplements, backed by research, that practically remove all of the negative side effects of adderall. To start with, the sadness you felt on vyvanse sounds like dopamine depletion. You want to be taking l-tyrosine to make sure there’s plenty of fuel for the amphetamine to work with. ALCAR + ALA counteract the psychomotor agitation and tolerance formation. Magnesium + zinc help with muscle cramping. Seleniu…

On magnesium. It’s been a huge help for migraines and muscle aches. Aside from zinc the others haven’t been on my radar.

Ordering the rest now.

My chief issue is nerve damage. Anything that helps them is a big win.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#98

Post by acituan » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #69

burtonator wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on Adderall for 5 years ... I'm 43 right now. It really HAS changed my life. What I've found is that over the long term you're able to perform much much better. By the time I was in my 30s I had developed coping skills which worked for the most part but I would find myself getting demotivated and defocused sometimes on long term priorities and sometimes unable to recommit to them. Adderall totally changed t…

You know what's totally nuts? Taking Amphetamine daily for years in reasonable doses essentially has no long term negative effects. In that way, similar to coffee. When I think about that, it's kind of mind blowing. For that matter, it is also crazy that we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus — since there are no known negative effects. It's just a cultural trope that it stunts growth, et…

> we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus > we are inhibiting our full potential because of misplaced fears?

I'll argue with the assumption that there is zero long term psychobiological consequences to exogenous psychostimulants (I personally don't buy this, but let's assume it was true). Increasing focus and task salience is only one of the many factors constitutive of human potential. They never give the answer for what to focus on, or whether a task is worth it or not, and rob the person of the opportunity for developing frustration tolerance. They turn people into indiscriminate doing machines, with little wisdom to guide it. Makes one think if prescription amphetamines being as widespread among plumbers as software engineers is truly a coincidence.

I will argue this is because our bioeconomics, our not wanting to do things is also part of our wisdom machinery. Having used for half a decade myself, I can spot some collogues who are on amphetamines; unnecessarily assertive, obsessed with orderliness of code, constantly in need of refactoring, huge bias for action with diminished wisdom to temper it (Well, also pees a lot.). There is a reason they are not being used by fighter pilots anymore because they can get too cocky and make decisions that kill their own.

No wonder everything looks like a good idea when your brain is swimming in dopamine and norepinephrine, but when everything looks like a good idea, how do you find what is the right thing to do in the medium/long term? Is that really the human potential? I would argue far from it. I think it is just enhancing the potential for a particular job description that requires you to sit on your bum all day and plumb boring stuff someone else tells you to.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#99

Post by ryanobjc » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

Nexxius wrote: post #51

andybak wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Started stroking out on it I've never heard this particular phrase before and I can only guess it's meaning vaguely from the context. What does it mean?

Elevated BP & hypertension causing Serious Negative cardiovascular issues to the point of immobilization and even arrhythmia.

Adderall is so commonly prescribed but honestly for some people the better choice may be dextroamphetamine. I know it was for me.

The levo-amphetamine in adderall causes what is known as peripheral side effects. Higher heart rate. And so on. It doesn’t actually help the brain. Apparently it helps the dextro part last longer.

But its also potentially dangerous.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#100

Post by Inception » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #69

burtonator wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on Adderall for 5 years ... I'm 43 right now. It really HAS changed my life. What I've found is that over the long term you're able to perform much much better. By the time I was in my 30s I had developed coping skills which worked for the most part but I would find myself getting demotivated and defocused sometimes on long term priorities and sometimes unable to recommit to them. Adderall totally changed t…

You know what's totally nuts? Taking Amphetamine daily for years in reasonable doses essentially has no long term negative effects. In that way, similar to coffee. When I think about that, it's kind of mind blowing. For that matter, it is also crazy that we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus — since there are no known negative effects. It's just a cultural trope that it stunts growth, et…

> For that matter, it is also crazy that we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus — since there are no known negative effects.

Might as well, we already load them up with sugar, which does have known side-effects.

Sarcasm aside, maybe not a direct negative side effect, but if you suffer from poor sleep, drinking too much coffee or drinking coffee too late in the day has correlation and lack of sleep certainly has negative side-effect.

Personally, I'll keep my kids off coffee and other drugs until they're old enough to buy it themselves.