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China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

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Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#91

Post by hker »

bamboozled wrote: post #87
nendroid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? You're completely right. The purpose of such a system shall be used to maintain power but that's not the sole purpose of such a system. More than just benefiting the ruling class China wants to be better than and more powerful than the United States of America in every possible way. In order to do this their policies must benefit the working class as well as it…

"Chinas' goal is to build a happy society that is more affluent and happy than the US but has less freedoms." It seems this is the case if you're Han Chinese only.

Not only that.

Not only non-Han Chinese face oppression (Uyghurs, Tibetans, Mongolians [1]), but lower class Han are also not well treated [2].

Point is, we should not judge the progress of China based on its most affluent class. Things are much more messy behind the cover.

And when we try to see the full picture, China is less and less a role model for others to follow.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/31/world/asia/china-protest-...

[2]: https://international.thenewslens.com/article/136734

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#92

Post by nendroid »

bamboozled wrote: post #87
nendroid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? You're completely right. The purpose of such a system shall be used to maintain power but that's not the sole purpose of such a system. More than just benefiting the ruling class China wants to be better than and more powerful than the United States of America in every possible way. In order to do this their policies must benefit the working class as well as it…

"Chinas' goal is to build a happy society that is more affluent and happy than the US but has less freedoms." It seems this is the case if you're Han Chinese only.

The government isn't targeting people by race. It's targeting people by culture and behavior. You either conform to the affluent chinese westernized lifestyle or they will force you Assimilate. Very similar to what happened to much of the Americas.

Race is just a correlation, the causative factor is the culture associated with the race as practitioners of falun gong (who include the Han people) are also targeted.

In America, I have the freedom to brainwash people into following Scientology, in China such cults cannot exist. The line of demarcation is blurry, when does a religion become a cult? How is the fantasmic stories of walking on water or coming back from the dead in christianity make it any different from scientology?

When China sees serfdom as part of the Tibetan culture do they label it backwards and raze the entire belief system or do they leave it alone? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-...

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#93

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

free_rms wrote: post #68
mistermann wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the expense seems to be... There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class. Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, al…

Also, to tack back to economics, "rural ethnic minorities" means "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care". The approach the government is taking there is certainly heavy-handed, but I think we should be careful not to fetishize their poverty as something to be preserved.

In the case of the Uighur, “rural ethnic minorities” isn’t really an apt name anyway. For the last several centuries, the Uighurs have broadly been towndwellers. (Other minorities in Xinjiang like the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz or the Iranian-speaking peoples maintain a more traditional rural life). Already on their own, the Uighur were on a path towards enjoying all the fruits of urban modernity. Most of the Chinese development brought to the area has been focused on making life better for Han Chinese settlers, not the indigenous population.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#94

Post by hker »

nendroid wrote: post #92
bamboozled wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Chinas' goal is to build a happy society that is more affluent and happy than the US but has less freedoms." It seems this is the case if you're Han Chinese only.

The government isn't targeting people by race. It's targeting people by culture and behavior. You either conform to the affluent chinese westernized lifestyle or they will force you Assimilate. Very similar to what happened to much of the Americas. Race is just a correlation, the causative factor is the culture associated with the race as practitioners of falun gong (who include the Han people) are also targeted. In…

> The government isn't targeting people by race. It's targeting people by culture and behavior.

Are you saying that the Chinese government force abortion by culture and behavior [1], not by race?

[1]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7g8m8/forced-abortions-a...

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#95

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #17
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes I don't know how anyone can say this with a straight face. In the west you can be bankrupt and still buy a first class airline ticket or go to a concert or do damn near anything else so long as you aren't using credit to do it.

you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets? What's astonishing to me is how we in the West have created this metaphysical alternative reality where poor people are taught to think they have the chance to live in mansions or fly on luxury airlines, if it weren't for the fact that they're poor, of course. In contrast to the cruel Chinese, we also have majestic legal equality, where…

> you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets?

It is quite common for the affluent in the West to have to declare bankruptcy for business reasons, but still maintain their affluent lifestyle through other sources of income that remain unaffected. That bankruptcy filing limits their access to credit, but it doesn’t affect their ability to purchase travel.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#96

Post by nendroid »

hker wrote: post #94
nendroid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government isn't targeting people by race. It's targeting people by culture and behavior. You either conform to the affluent chinese westernized lifestyle or they will force you Assimilate. Very similar to what happened to much of the Americas. Race is just a correlation, the causative factor is the culture associated with the race as practitioners of falun gong (who include the Han people) are also targeted. In…

> The government isn't targeting people by race. It's targeting people by culture and behavior. Are you saying that the Chinese government force abortion by culture and behavior [1], not by race? [1]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7g8m8/forced-abortions-a...

This is horrid. What's going on here is that the targeting is going in both directions. They target the race because of the culture.

In general if you live in the big cities but follow the cultural standards you will not be touched regardless of your race.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#97

Post by wombatmobile »

nendroid wrote: post #85
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

>Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? You're completely right. The purpose of such a system shall be used to maintain power but that's not the sole purpose of such a system. More than just benefiting the ruling class China wants to be better than and more powerful than the United States of America in every possible way. In order to do this their policies must benefit the working class as well as it…

> China wants to be better than and more powerful than the United States of America in every possible way

Citation?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#98

Post by [deleted] »

auggierose wrote: post #78
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least on paper it's optimized for all good things. From the article above: Negative factors: dishonest and fraudulent financial behavior, playing loud music, violating traffic rules, making reservations at restaurants and not showing up, failing to correctly sort your waste, fraudulently using other people's public transportation ID cards Positive factors, on the other hand, include: donating blood, donating to ch…

This is frightening stuff. It would be justified to kill in order to avoid such a system.

[deleted]

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#99

Post by mechnesium »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

A social credit system seems like the only logical and humane evolutionary solution for a nation with over a billion people and counting. There has to be a way to filter the signal from the noise.

If you want something different, go somewhere with a smaller population where you can afford that luxury. Quantity versus quality.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#100

Post by mechnesium »

disown wrote: post #37
rfwhyte wrote: post #29

The truly terrifying thing to me about the Chinese social credit system is that the CCP is actively trying to package and sell it to other autocratic states. They're testing it out and optimizing it on their own populace, but the eventual endgame is to sell it to a bunch of Asian, African, and Eastern European dictators and build themselves a nearly omnipotent back door to coerce and control the lives of people the w…

[flagged]

Well stated. There is no global Chinese hegemony... only the United States Global Police and their lies about freedom and democracy.
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