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A Short Story for Engineers

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Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#91

Post by avip »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #55
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #29

Yes, the story is an urban legend, the budget goes up every time it's told, etc. But I think the important lesson here is not really "line worker outsmarts expensive consultants", its really about incentives . The consultants are incentivized to do good work (they want to keep a good reputation and potentially get more work) BUT they are also incentivized to charge as much as possible ("value-based pricing" is the te…

I think it actually matters that it's an urban legend. If it were a true story the value of its message would be less disputable. But if it's an urban legend that means that the message -- that line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer -- is unsubstantiated and may not be true in the main. (I qualify this with "in the main" because of course there must have been some occasion when a line worker had…

I used to work as a SW developer for an assembly line. Anecdotally, "my" "line workers" were very good at micro optimizations s.a where to place tools, when to duplicate stands, what order of operations makes more sense, alert when a material/part quantity drops.

I was occasionally replacing one of them to QA a SW tool, and was pretty slow and clumsy comparing to them.

I'd say overall their resourcefulness or "practical engineering" did some 1-5% impact on throughput.

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#92

Post by monkpit »

scottmckenzie wrote: post #85

A lot of people of viewing this as a positive story. I’m not sure I do. Empty boxes are still making their way to the end of the process where a hack is being used to fix the outcome. The problem of the empty boxes still exists. In fact, it could be many problems down the line. I saw an interesting comparison of mechanics vs engineers where (no intended slight to mechanics) mechanics will fix the behaviour but engine…

Not every problem is worth fixing “the right way”.

The internal cost of wasting a packaging box (a few cents a day) is probably hugely surpassed by the value of increasing quality.

You have to consider the opportunity cost of the Root Cause Analysis and the potential fix, along with shutting down the line to implement it. Compare that to the cost of the fan fix.

Just because you could do Root Cause Analysis doesn’t mean you should go through with it. YAGNI

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#93

Post by mdifrgechd »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #55
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #29

Yes, the story is an urban legend, the budget goes up every time it's told, etc. But I think the important lesson here is not really "line worker outsmarts expensive consultants", its really about incentives . The consultants are incentivized to do good work (they want to keep a good reputation and potentially get more work) BUT they are also incentivized to charge as much as possible ("value-based pricing" is the te…

I think it actually matters that it's an urban legend. If it were a true story the value of its message would be less disputable. But if it's an urban legend that means that the message -- that line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer -- is unsubstantiated and may not be true in the main. (I qualify this with "in the main" because of course there must have been some occasion when a line worker had…

> line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer

I saw it more as just a lesson about not overthinking things. Another version of the "During the space age Americans spent money developed a special compressed ink pen that could write in space, the Russians used a pencil". I think looking for a simple solution first is always good advice.

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#94

Post by koonsolo »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #84
koonsolo wrote: post #75

These are the stories that non-engineers like to tell themselves to feel smarter. Especially managers like to think they have more common sense than engineers. But reality is that engineers are the ones who know most about the subject, they know the details how everything interacts with each other. I had meetings with managers that thought their common sense could help me, only ending up me explaining the most basic…

You certainly sound like the sort of person who is chronically surrounded by a surprisingly large number of idiots.

Not anymore, I quit such jobs ;)

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#95

Post by triceratops »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #84
koonsolo wrote: post #75

These are the stories that non-engineers like to tell themselves to feel smarter. Especially managers like to think they have more common sense than engineers. But reality is that engineers are the ones who know most about the subject, they know the details how everything interacts with each other. I had meetings with managers that thought their common sense could help me, only ending up me explaining the most basic…

You certainly sound like the sort of person who is chronically surrounded by a surprisingly large number of idiots.

Well you know the saying..."If you met one asshole today, that person was an asshole. If everyone you met was an asshole today..."

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#96

Post by mseo »

mdifrgechd wrote: post #93
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it actually matters that it's an urban legend. If it were a true story the value of its message would be less disputable. But if it's an urban legend that means that the message -- that line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer -- is unsubstantiated and may not be true in the main. (I qualify this with "in the main" because of course there must have been some occasion when a line worker had…

> line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer I saw it more as just a lesson about not overthinking things. Another version of the "During the space age Americans spent money developed a special compressed ink pen that could write in space, the Russians used a pencil". I think looking for a simple solution first is always good advice.

That story seems more or less to be a myth, too. And there seems to be a good reason why they used from pencils, which they used in the beginning to pens:

"Pencils may not have been the best choice anyway. The tips flaked and broke off, drifting in microgravity where they could potentially harm an astronaut or equipment. And pencils are flammable--a quality NASA wanted to avoid in onboard objects after the Apollo 1 fire."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-n...

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#97

Post by peterclary »

spottybanana wrote: post #49
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #29

Yes, the story is an urban legend, the budget goes up every time it's told, etc. But I think the important lesson here is not really "line worker outsmarts expensive consultants", its really about incentives . The consultants are incentivized to do good work (they want to keep a good reputation and potentially get more work) BUT they are also incentivized to charge as much as possible ("value-based pricing" is the te…

> The best solution (and I believe a bunch of research backs this up) is to better incentivize your line workers and reward them appropriately. I know one study in particular that showed broad-based stock option ownership among employees was correlated with stronger company results, while options concentrated just among senior execs was not correlated with business success. It can be also quite easy to make mistakes…

Pretty much any incentive scheme can cause problems if it’s poorly thought through. You also need people paying close attention to any abuses.

I knew of one company where the Sales team were compensated based on the value of orders booked by a given date at/near the end of each month. That monthly value was unaffected by any orders cancelled from the previous month. What happened, of course, was that they would persuade people to place orders to be cancelled once the date passed. The value of the orders was always decent on the date in question, so the Sales staff always did quite well but the same orders might be placed, cancelled, and placed again multiple times over the year before they properly materialised (if ever).

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#98

Post by tuatoru »

mdifrgechd wrote: post #93
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it actually matters that it's an urban legend. If it were a true story the value of its message would be less disputable. But if it's an urban legend that means that the message -- that line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer -- is unsubstantiated and may not be true in the main. (I qualify this with "in the main" because of course there must have been some occasion when a line worker had…

> line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer I saw it more as just a lesson about not overthinking things. Another version of the "During the space age Americans spent money developed a special compressed ink pen that could write in space, the Russians used a pencil". I think looking for a simple solution first is always good advice.

A.K.A. "What an ordinary engineer can do for a dollar, a good engineer can do for ten cents."

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#99

Post by mdifrgechd »

mseo wrote: post #96
mdifrgechd wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer I saw it more as just a lesson about not overthinking things. Another version of the "During the space age Americans spent money developed a special compressed ink pen that could write in space, the Russians used a pencil". I think looking for a simple solution first is always good advice.

That story seems more or less to be a myth, too. And there seems to be a good reason why they used from pencils, which they used in the beginning to pens: "Pencils may not have been the best choice anyway. The tips flaked and broke off, drifting in microgravity where they could potentially harm an astronaut or equipment. And pencils are flammable--a quality NASA wanted to avoid in onboard objects after the Apollo 1 f…

Interesting, I had meant to point out that I had no evidence one way or the other if it was actually true, the point is just the idea of keeping it simple.

And your counterpoint about the graphite floating around is a good parable for why seemingly obvious, "clever" solutions often don't actually work, and that armchair critics should not assume the solution team was not smart enough to consider the obvious ideas :)

Re: A Short Story for Engineers

#100

Post by [deleted] »

mdifrgechd wrote: post #93
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it actually matters that it's an urban legend. If it were a true story the value of its message would be less disputable. But if it's an urban legend that means that the message -- that line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer -- is unsubstantiated and may not be true in the main. (I qualify this with "in the main" because of course there must have been some occasion when a line worker had…

> line workers have valuable and inexpensive insights to offer I saw it more as just a lesson about not overthinking things. Another version of the "During the space age Americans spent money developed a special compressed ink pen that could write in space, the Russians used a pencil". I think looking for a simple solution first is always good advice.

[deleted]
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