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The User Always Loses

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Re: The User Always Loses

#91
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real root cause of "user hostility" is that companies are run by humans and humans are self-serving and want to make more money. At least for software, we know of one solution that works: free (as in speech) software. Still made by humans, but usually without the self-serving greed, and if any of that does turn up, you never lose access to the last-good version and source, in case you or someone else wants to f…

> At least for software, we know of one solution that works: free (as in speech) software. Still made by humans, but usually without the self-serving greed Sorry, but this is laughable. Instead of self-serving greed, you have self-serving "what interests the person writing it." That leaves us with open source software that has horrible user interfaces and is every bit as user-hostile as for-pay software. (For example…

I think, personally, that it's because only the most iconoclastic individuals are willing to put in the effort to make truly free software (like MIT licensed, for example) since they have the raw, unfettered drive (based on their hatred of the mainstream) required to work through the years of programming for zero monetary returns that it takes to produce a feature-complete software project that does something worthwhile.

I believe we could partially solve this problem if we could better support the work-a-day developer with a great idea, who either doesn't have the risk profile to quit their job or doesn't have the free time to slave away in their home after their normal job. These people tend to be the programmer/engineer who worked in one or several companies in a similar industry, has seen the mistakes and insights from each, and can visualize a better data structure for a common operation in this industry, or perhaps even a new operational model that works more efficiently for optimizing some common problem.

However, those developers just don't have the incentive/drive/motivation to do it, and usually that's because their method of survival is to sell their time to another person/corporation in exchange for money that can be used to buy food, shelter, etc. and thus they are too tired, too demotivated, or perhaps they just want to spend some time with their family and friends. Whatever the reason, if you allow them some more of their free time to work on other stuff, these developers will come up with amazing things. There is an argument that some make about the "laziness" of developers who can't do a job and become a CEO of a startup and have a family, but why insinuate or argue that they're too lazy and unworthy when we could un-block their "laziness" and get great results for humanity? (My view is that no one is "lazy", just that some people have a higher "activation energy", but once they are "activated" most people will work as hard as the next.)

Also, I personally think software serving the interests of one person is going to be generally better than software serving the interests of greed, but I have no evidence, just a feeling from my life experiences.

Re: The User Always Loses

#92
We also live in a "consumer always loses" economy as well. It could just be "consumer" supercedes "user".

I was listening to Richard Wolff describing to Patrick Bet-David how capitalism creates monopolies and in the end the consumers always lose [1]. As companies get bigger, they become worse actors. I can't think of a counter example.

Patrick thinks everything has gotten cheaper and the consumer is winning, at least today (since history only backs the thesis). Richard couldn't come up with immediate counter examples regarding how Amazon is abusing their monopoly priviledges but FBA pricing and seller fees came to mind. Someone in the comments mentioned prescription drugs.

[1] Heated Debate On Capitalism with America’s Most Prominent Marxist Economist - Richard Wolff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj-zFgxCUnY

Re: The User Always Loses

#94
This is probably why I’m always attracted to productivity tools. Spending $10 to save $100 is a net positive contribution. Skinner boxing people and spying on them are not.

Re: The User Always Loses

#95
This transformation of customers to “users” (an otherwise appropriate and even innocuous term when used in context) parallels the commonplace use of “consumer” for “person” (a usage I even see on HN).

We all have many roles, in which it may be appropriate to consider us as “user”, “customer”, “consumer”, “driver”, “parent”, “friend”...* preferring the term “person” might remind us that at the end of the day that the user’s interest is not necessarily aligned with ours (usually joystick in face) and that we need them more than they need us.

* I had a colleague who refers to parents of teens as “protectors of terrorists”. Yes, he had four teens himself. While the term was unwieldy and the joke rapidly wore thin, it reminded me of the various roles played by parents...and kids, and made me more tolerant of the foibles of teens. When we bundle a person into “user” it’s easy to lose perspective on the actual objective.

Re: The User Always Loses

#96
post #32

The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns is a feature/bug that determines the course these companies are likely to take. It creates the need to occasionally tade end-user freedoms for opportunities to "capture value". Venture Capital also imports theories of scarcity and under-production that our entire open-source ecosystem…

>The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns [...] VCs are not the root cause. You're not looking hard enough for counterexamples . Examples of software companies that didn't take VC money that many consider to be "user hostile" are: - Intuit -- see 1-star reviews on Amazon of annual Quicken releases and forced upgrades of bugg…

FWIW you can address all of your criticisms by expanding the problem from VCs to non-founder investors generally. All of your examples are publicly-traded companies.

> The real root cause of "user hostility" is that companies are run by humans and humans are self-serving and want to make more money. E.g. Look at COVID causing some colleges/universities cancelling in-person classes and refuse to refund tuition fees claiming that "video instruction" is same quality of education. The money came from students and not VCs. You can't blame VCs for that.

I'm not sure this one fits, because the universities are between a rock and a hard place. They've switched to "video instruction" but none of their expenses have gone away because they're still maintaining a campus and about the same level of staffing since they expect to switch back to it in the not too distant future. But if their costs haven't gone down, it's pretty hard for them to charge less without going under.

Re: The User Always Loses

#97

The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns is a feature/bug that determines the course these companies are likely to take. It creates the need to occasionally tade end-user freedoms for opportunities to "capture value". Venture Capital also imports theories of scarcity and under-production that our entire open-source ecosystem…

> a new framework for how we build technology companies in the first place

The great thing about the free market is anybody can create a company in whatever framework they like.

For example, the D Language Foundation. We don't make money, it's pretty much all volunteers and support from industry. We don't "extract" any value from our users.

This is hardly the only example.

Re: The User Always Loses

#98

I find it ironic that this article talks about the user losing out to aggressive (and intrusive) advertising on the web, but presents me with an un-closeable modal window[0] asking me to subscribe to their blog. Note: I have JS disabled by default, and had to temporarily enable JS to view the article, but it's still intrusive and annoying for users. [0] https://imgur.com/a/SQSHh0i

I got the popup message, but could delete it with the element inspector. But I still dislike the large font size and narrow margins, so I also disabled CSS and that fixed it.

Re: The User Always Loses

#99
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real root cause of "user hostility" is that companies are run by humans and humans are self-serving and want to make more money. At least for software, we know of one solution that works: free (as in speech) software. Still made by humans, but usually without the self-serving greed, and if any of that does turn up, you never lose access to the last-good version and source, in case you or someone else wants to f…

> At least for software, we know of one solution that works: free (as in speech) software. Still made by humans, but usually without the self-serving greed Sorry, but this is laughable. Instead of self-serving greed, you have self-serving "what interests the person writing it." That leaves us with open source software that has horrible user interfaces and is every bit as user-hostile as for-pay software. (For example…

It varies by the software. Some free software is a lot better than others.

Re: The User Always Loses

#100
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real root cause of "user hostility" is that companies are run by humans and humans are self-serving and want to make more money. At least for software, we know of one solution that works: free (as in speech) software. Still made by humans, but usually without the self-serving greed, and if any of that does turn up, you never lose access to the last-good version and source, in case you or someone else wants to f…

> At least for software, we know of one solution that works: free (as in speech) software. Still made by humans, but usually without the self-serving greed Sorry, but this is laughable. Instead of self-serving greed, you have self-serving "what interests the person writing it." That leaves us with open source software that has horrible user interfaces and is every bit as user-hostile as for-pay software. (For example…

Except that for free software, "the person writing it" is not preventing anyone else from being "the person writing it" so anyone with criticisms is directed to apply time or money to solving the problem they're complaining about. Because unlike proprietary software, you can actually do that.

This doesn't work well for UI improvements for a very specific reason, which is that most of the UI criticisms of free software are about how it's difficult to learn rather than how it's difficult to use after you've learned it. So by the time you've spent the effort to learn the existing UI well enough to know what changes to make to it, you no longer have a personal incentive to make it easier to learn, because you've already paid the time cost of learning it.

But that isn't user-hostile, it's newbie-hostile, which is different. In particular it means that if you're willing to put in the time to get over the hump, you end up with software that actually does exactly what you want, even if the incantations to get it to do that aren't always initially intuitive.

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