Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps • Hacker News Board

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#91

Post by FooBarWidget » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

askl56 wrote: post #83

FooBarWidget wrote: post #76

There is a Canadian named Jerry Grey, who went on a bicycle ride in China. He literally rode hundreds of kilometers in Xinjiang, away from mainstream tourist attractions, to remote places he himself is interested in. He was able to do that without government supervision; all the government checkpoints let him pass without much scrutiny. What he reports on is very different from mainstream media reports. One of his bl…

As someone who lives in SEA and used to live in China, he's able to move around because he lives in China and I assume has a long term visa and speaks Mandarin. And he is going with the blessing of the Chinese state media: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/12754321240702976... What he is saying does not seem remotely credible unless he has the evidence to back it up. I don't think he's completely making up t…

Didn't Global Times report on him long after he had already made the trip and blogged about it? Or are you saying: it's all one big scheme, planned way up front?

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#92

Post by adventured » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #65

gus_massa wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "made in democracy" Many countries have a fake democracy cover. Even Hitler won an election with like the 99% of the votes (I wonder if the other 1% survived for too long.) Also, does this label apply to the United Kingdom or Canada?

> Also, does this label apply to the United Kingdom or Canada? Why would it not? It's not like the head of state wields power in a parliamentary democracy. We cut the head off the last monarch to try that 1649, more than 100 years before either the French or US revolutions.

Why is the Queen involved at all in regards to Parliament? The spectacle with Boris Johnson and the Queen was quite a sad joke on supposed British democracy.

So long as the Queen (royal family) has any political capabilities, Britain is a partial democracy at best. Realistically they're still a mixture of monarchy and democracy, as they have been for a long time. Although people certainly likely to pretend the royal family has no tangible role or political power (because they want to pretend to be a modern democracy, while retaining the monarchy which they culturally have affection for; which is another way of saying they want to have their cake and eat it too).

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#93

Post by magicsmoke » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

throwaway69123 wrote: post #70

radmuzom wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start by self reflection on your hypocrisy. Do you feel bad about regularly using services from a country which has committed and supported some of the worst war crimes and genocide in history? (if not obvious, I am referring to the US)

You lost me with "in history" did you just forget the last 200 years?

I'm pretty sure he didn't. The US has the notable distinction of performing genocide on an entire continent of peoples and cultures in the process of replacing its population with settlers. I'm sure more then a few people in China justify ethnic cleansing with "The US did it and now they're the most powerful nation in the world. Maybe they were on to something. Well, better late then never."

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#94

Post by FooBarWidget » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #68

There are various levels of reporting in about what's happening in Xinjiang. I'm curious which ones of the following people here on HN believe are true. A. There is forced re-education, forced de-radicalization, and forced political assimilation (to fight separatism). Some camps are indeed for voluntary vocational education, others are for forced re-education. The number of people who are forced into camps, are a lot…

Does anyone know why the above post gets downvoted, even though it's only inquiring people for opinions, and not even presenting its own opinion?

What have I done wrong, and what should I have done differently?

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#95

Post by loceng » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #76

There is a Canadian named Jerry Grey, who went on a bicycle ride in China. He literally rode hundreds of kilometers in Xinjiang, away from mainstream tourist attractions, to remote places he himself is interested in. He was able to do that without government supervision; all the government checkpoints let him pass without much scrutiny. What he reports on is very different from mainstream media reports. One of his bl…

How to compare that with this experience then?

https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ

Also, it's interesting that on Twitter of sharing related articles you'll have Asian people with accounts commenting with very short messages simply saying "you're stupid" or similar without explaining themselves nor actually engaging with the comments - their replies getting 4+ Likes from near bot-looking accounts.

It seems the CCP is working hard to craft the narrative worldwide.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#96

Post by simonh » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #76

There is a Canadian named Jerry Grey, who went on a bicycle ride in China. He literally rode hundreds of kilometers in Xinjiang, away from mainstream tourist attractions, to remote places he himself is interested in. He was able to do that without government supervision; all the government checkpoints let him pass without much scrutiny. What he reports on is very different from mainstream media reports. One of his bl…

The section on separatism is unadulterated pro-authoritarianism. Examples of regions that have peacefully seceded from a nation abound. Norway from Sweden, Greenland and Iceland from Denmark, multiple states from the former Soviet Union. Scotland had a referendum on independence recently and though they chose to stay part of the UK, there was no threat or chance of violence. Freedom to seceded, or coerced union are both choices and 'everybody does it' is the worst excuse ever. Pure whataboutism.

The fact that the US has indivisibility in it's constitution is a weird historical wrinkle, and one I find hard to reconcile given that they chose to separate from Britain. How they didn't recognise a general right for self determination is beyond me. But then I am a Brit.

I'm married to a former Chinese citizen and have family in China, and while Ive not lived there I've been many times. It's oppressive enough of minorities just in the relatively peaceful areas I've visited. There's a superficial respect for ethnicities, but that's coupled with a sustained campaign of cultural suppression, dilution and colonisation.

For example there's no smallness of degree of ethnic blood too thin to count as part of that ethnicity, and ethnic groups get privileges Han don't, encouraging registration as minority members. Plus registration is just a matter of getting 'notorised', which is an unbelievably corrupt system. The result is that the vast majority of official members of 'ethnic minorities' have virtually, or actually no connection with the ethnic culture, but get full say in how their 'minority' is represented and treated. All the people who get an official say in minority relations are functionally 100% Han, and party members to boot.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#97

Post by CWuestefeld » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

throwaway69123 wrote: post #25

How as a consumer do I avoid the moral dread of buying made in China when 99% of everything is made in China.

I'd suggest that this is less black versus white than it appears.

In buying products made in China, you're helping to raise a huge number of people out of crushing poverty. I've traveled through China across 25 years, and seen how their lives have improved, yet some are still trying to eke out subsistence, farming what looked like a 1-acre plot with an ox.

Yes, the CCP is evil. But the moral calculus is never simple, I don't think we can simply assume that the net effect of purchasing from China is morally bad. It does enable some bad things, but it also helps quite a lot of people.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#98

Post by mike_h » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #86

free_rms wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the Comintern was merely meant to promote workers rights? It's definitionally a propaganda arm of the government. If you think that we're the good guys, then they're the good guys, but they're still propaganda.

> It's definitionally a propaganda arm of the government. If you think that we're the good guys, then they're the good guys, but they're still propaganda. If it's propaganda, it's propaganda for western-style journalism and liberal values. The question shouldn't be "is it state sponsored or not;" it should be "is its reporting reliable or not." On that question, RFA's reporting on this topic has gotten the endorsemen…

I wouldn’t consider NYT approval a great validation metric. Their reporting on Xinjiang in particular really made it sound to me like someone has an axe to grind and they know they’re preaching to a choir over here. There was one massive “Xinjiang expose” they published a couple years ago that hung on allegations by a few individuals who the reporters claimed were putting their lives at risk by talking, but who the reporters nonetheless identified by name and face.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#99

Post by FooBarWidget » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #95

FooBarWidget wrote: post #76

There is a Canadian named Jerry Grey, who went on a bicycle ride in China. He literally rode hundreds of kilometers in Xinjiang, away from mainstream tourist attractions, to remote places he himself is interested in. He was able to do that without government supervision; all the government checkpoints let him pass without much scrutiny. What he reports on is very different from mainstream media reports. One of his bl…

How to compare that with this experience then? https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ Also, it's interesting that on Twitter of sharing related articles you'll have Asian people with accounts commenting with very short messages simply saying "you're stupid" or similar without explaining themselves nor actually engaging with the comments - their replies getting 4+ Likes from near bot-looking accounts. It seems the CCP is workin…

Can you show some of those tweets? I don't think I've ever seen them, so I'm curious.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#100

Post by throwaway69123 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 2:31 PM UTC

magicsmoke wrote: post #93

throwaway69123 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You lost me with "in history" did you just forget the last 200 years?

I'm pretty sure he didn't. The US has the notable distinction of performing genocide on an entire continent of peoples and cultures in the process of replacing its population with settlers. I'm sure more then a few people in China justify ethnic cleansing with "The US did it and now they're the most powerful nation in the world. Maybe they were on to something. Well, better late then never."

I am not American, but I assume you are referring to native americans, it is my understanding that the displacement of the native population occured before the federation of the US states, which would mean the perpetrators of this crime would be the colonizing countries, which would be Spain/France/England, surely?