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YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

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Re: YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

#91

Post by mumblemumble »

codesections wrote: post #60

This serves as an interesting counterpoint to Paul Graham's Beating the Averages[0] essay (which argues for using a powerful programming language as a secret weapon to allow a startup to outperform its competitors). Reading this list, I'm struck by just how mainstream the languages are. I don't have anything against Python or Ruby, but it'd be hard to describe either as a secret weapon — indeed, about the only "secre…

He wrote that essay nearly 2 decades ago. It was a different world. At the time, the only language with a truly comprehensive open source ecosystem was perl, so, if you were going to work on anything else, there was a decent chance you'd end up writing almost everything yourself. That puts you in a spot where your secret weapon is the language itself.

Nowadays, I'd argue that the secret weapon is never the language itself. Ruby's popularity was never about Ruby itself, it was about Rails. Python is, IMO, an ugly hack of a language, but it's still the one I'm always pushing for at work, because its unbelievably lush open source ecosystem means that choosing Python means you'll end up having to do a lot fewer things yourself. Java's was originally about cross-platform deployment, but, now that it's been a decade or so since anyone was actually that worried about interpreted languages, I'd guess it's now more the fact that Java developers are cheap and easy to hire.

I'm also honestly not super impressed by Graham's comments on programming languages. Sure, Viaweb sold for a lot of money. But then it turned out that it was an unmaintainable mess that needed to be rewritten. Graham has done a good job of pitching the idea that this is because people can't understand the obvious genius of Lisp, and I'll admit, as a Lisper, that that story once beguiled me. But, now that I've been around the block a few times, I realize that code that can only be maintained by its own author is never good code, and that sale price is rarely a good proxy for quality (especially when the purchaser is Yahoo!), and that sheer dumb luck plays a much larger part in entrepeneurs' success than any business essayist cares to admit, least of all the ones writing autobiographical essays.

Re: YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

#92

Post by aggieben »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #75

So the use of C# dooms my startup? I feel really out of touch having never used python or ruby.

Not at all. Keep in mind that YC startups are birthed from a very narrow slice of the tech world. .NET Core is very, very good tech and unless you need something super niche, there's no reason to doubt your choice. Press on.

Re: YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

#93

Post by aggieben »

johnny_reilly wrote: post #4

Fascinating to see how heavily Ruby and Python feature. The things that surprised me by their absence and near absence were languages I love: JS and C# That said, this is taking now well established startups that will have begun their lives 5+ years ago in general. If I was picking a back end stack then I'd probably hesitate before picking the .NET Framework. But these days I'd easily pick .NET Core. Likewise, I'd wa…

+1 for choosing .NET Core. I'm right there with you. Extra points for F#.

Re: YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

#96

Post by lgregg »

smoe wrote: post #81
johnny_reilly wrote: post #4

Fascinating to see how heavily Ruby and Python feature. The things that surprised me by their absence and near absence were languages I love: JS and C# That said, this is taking now well established startups that will have begun their lives 5+ years ago in general. If I was picking a back end stack then I'd probably hesitate before picking the .NET Framework. But these days I'd easily pick .NET Core. Likewise, I'd wa…

I think this is because, in the 2000s, when a lot of these companies were founded, Ruby and Python hit an pretty much empty sweetspot for web application development in between quickly thrown together scripts and the super heavy enterprisey frameworks. But since then, that space has gotten a lot more crowded from all sides. There is now a pretty big selection of mature technology to pick from depending on your needs.…

I think most frameworks/languages swing in and out of the lime light. Using Ruby as an example, it was great then got really hot, then as you said Python got the data science boost and moved a lot of people there. I'm curious if Matz makes good on his promise to 3x Ruby that will result in Ruby getting some more data science libraries.

That said, last I checked regarding performance Rails and Django were pretty much neck and neck with a negligible difference with rails being very slightly faster (iirc).

I think also a big reason why Ruby is feature so heavily in this list is because of it's focus of developer productivity. It's a nice mesh of flexibility and convention. Generally all projects are setup and organized the same but you can still write a conditional if statement a dozen ways. Compared to my personal experience working with Django and Python are the woes of getting everything configured and setup for each project which is frankly a pita. Also, Python is fairly regimented on a lot of flexibility which has its perks too.

Re: YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

#97

Post by dyeje »

ronanyeah wrote: post #84
maxehmookau wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really feel you get a much more maintainable codebase than a ruby project, As I'm sure you're aware, this is entirely subjective. I really feel the opposite.

Language comparison is not subjective if the person has experience using both. Otherwise it is guessing.

It is still subjective. There is no objective way to use each language to build a product.

Re: YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

#98

Post by davio »

mlnj wrote: post #52
jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excel is extremely well optimized and can easily handle GB size CSVs

At a company I used to work for there were tales of an early admin guy handling all of payroll, employee directory, and tonnes of admin task data for multiple hundreds of employees in Excel. Guy was an Excel god. It worked perfectly fine until it was move into a proper database with in house built portals to handle the tasks.

We used to have a prophecy that when the IT apocalypse hits, we'll be pushing our shopping carts around like in Cormac McCarthy's The Road; moving from company to company to fix the VLookups in their Excel spreadmarts

Re: YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

#99

Post by mellavora »

brainless wrote: post #17
johnny_reilly wrote: post #4

Fascinating to see how heavily Ruby and Python feature. The things that surprised me by their absence and near absence were languages I love: JS and C# That said, this is taking now well established startups that will have begun their lives 5+ years ago in general. If I was picking a back end stack then I'd probably hesitate before picking the .NET Framework. But these days I'd easily pick .NET Core. Likewise, I'd wa…

I use Python by choice and the more there is growing need for Natural Language Processing, Machine Learning, Data Mining, the more I can not leave Python. I try Rust, Ruby and others on the side. But Python is just so heavily fortified now that I constantly suggest startups who are going to build non-trivial tech to select Python. Also the whole Linux, deployment, etc. space is filled with Python. Biology, Physics, M…

what about R?

or Scala if you need bigger scale?

Re: YC Software Startups: Value and Initial Programming Language Used

#100

Post by dustingetz »

aggieben wrote: post #90

This would be more interesting if YC didn't have a strong inherent bias toward these particular languages. In other words: these are the results because this is what YC picks and filters for, not because of any inherent meaningfulness about choosing these languages, or qualities of the languages.

It's true that investors filter for easy to see signals, so therefore it is also likely true that 130 IQ startups get funded but 140 IQ startups are not recognized (or even outright ostracized), but this is the same for customers, executives, and humans generally. So it's not clear that this could be any other way. In this way humanity is a tragedy. Look around. Everything is mush.
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