Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever • Hacker News Board

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#91

Post by sharadov » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:06 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #22

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

> The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work during the pandemic is staggering. I wouldn't look at that and conclude that these people are just domesticated livestock who have no self-worth beyond their job. A lot of legitimate hobbies and even just normal socializing are completely shut down or heavily restricted in a lot of places.

It's unfortunate that passive entertainment is all that we crave, people in general have become "lazy", they simply don't want to put the effort in doing anything "active" > sports, art, music. And I disagree, you can pick a new sport, prior to the pandemic I worked out at the gym and played racquetball. Now I work out at home with kettle bells and resistance bands. Picked up mountain biking and tennis, which are "socially distanced" sports. You can learn a musical instrument, cook, bake, paint, ride a motorcycle, kayak, take pictures, no one is stopping you.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#92

Post by brushfoot » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:09 PM UTC

silveroriole wrote: post #70

brushfoot wrote: post #67

The article sets up a bit of a false dichotomy. It's partly inherent in using idleness as the alternative to economically productive work. Did Russell himself use that term (edit: yes :-))? I'm guessing it's supposed to be provocative, to make it stick. But I'd imagine that's part of the problem. Many people would balk, and I think rightly so, at the connotations. There's nothing positive about undirected free time o…

Thank goodness we can get aerobic exercise in while gardening. If ‘twere not so, gardening might be - horror - unproductive! “The modern man thinks that everything ought to be done for the sake of something else, and never for its own sake.” I know “nobody reads the article” is an HN joke, but surely asking whether Russell uses the word idleness in his essay titled “In Praise of Idleness” is taking the mick...

Edited -- I'd forgotten they cited the essay in the article. :-)

I know what you're saying and for the most part, I agree. I don't want to give the impression that I'm disparaging what isn't immediately materially, visibly useful to me. I don't believe in "inutile beauty" from a philosophical perspective, but not in the sense that I want to do away with it...just that I don't believe it exists. I think everything has some effect.

So that's one thing I like about gardening -- I find (for me) there's a bigger cluster of positive effects around gardening than jogging. The produce makes my family and friends happy and there are little goals to keep me distracted from the exertion. I still get the cognitive effects of a hard aerobic workout, but there are other benefits too.

I'm curious, what would you consider an unproductive activity?

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#93

Post by mc32 » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:12 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #22

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

> The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work during the pandemic is staggering. I wouldn't look at that and conclude that these people are just domesticated livestock who have no self-worth beyond their job. A lot of legitimate hobbies and even just normal socializing are completely shut down or heavily restricted in a lot of places.

I think this is part of it. Lots of things require social contact in parts of the process. If your hobby produces something useful, it might also require a way to distribute it in a marketplace: say bread, or cheese or beer, furniture, etc., etc. At some point your hobby can cause things to pile up in your residence and that's no good either.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#94

Post by jokethrowaway » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:14 PM UTC

sebastianconcpt wrote: post #21

Why a partisan article is being discussed here? Really. This is material affiliated to the Labour Party in the U.K. which is associated to the International Socialist. Why is it a subject here?

I think it's a very interesting article, despite the bias.

I hate to break it to you, but rich people in general and big tech in particular are left leaning.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#95

Post by marta_morena_25 » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:16 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #22

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

> The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work during the pandemic is staggering. I wouldn't look at that and conclude that these people are just domesticated livestock who have no self-worth beyond their job. A lot of legitimate hobbies and even just normal socializing are completely shut down or heavily restricted in a lot of places.

Isn't that exactly the point? It's just extended a little, with "legitimate hobbies" and "normal socializing" not available. So take that away and then they are domesticated livestock? If you don't have the ability to do something with your time outside of your normal environment, that is definitely an indicator that something is really off. There is SOOOO much you can do. I wouldn't even know where to start even if I didn't have my job and was locked in a room.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#96

Post by icelancer » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:16 PM UTC

zemvpferreira wrote: post #89

icelancer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free. Different strokes. I spent 3 years of my life professionally gambling as one of my full-time jobs and lived more in those 3 years than most do in a lifetime, and founded a company with an eight-figure valuation that is a lot of fun to run. If I worked some boring desk job that I hated, sure. Besides, my best years are ahead of me. I'll be in great shape in my 50s with nothing but time and options. The idea…

Plenty of us here founded companies with eight-figure valuations. Not that uncommon on hacker news. I did and I’ve never worked-worked more than 30 hours per week except for short bursts at a time. The more critical your work is, the more time you should dedicate to being at your best. I don’t take any umbrage at your chosen path nor do I disagree that america is a winner take most society. But when most is a bunch o…

Well I work two jobs plus consulting, so it's like 30-35 hrs/job if that works!

I agree RE: consumerism. I save / invest most of my money and spend it on services like you (though I cook most of my meals since it's a hobby of mine; but same idea with a nanny, housekeeper, etc). I wear mostly free clothing from vendors and my suits (such that I need them) are all from Indochino; I drive a 12 year old used SUV around and live in a modest townhome in a not-great area of my city.

I have "enough." I enjoy work, a lot. I get the feeling a lot of people don't like working, or like their job, or something. It's not a chore. 70 hours a week producing and working is indeed a hell of a lot of fun. Especially for those years when it was gambling... but hey, what I do now is still almost as fun.

EDIT: Well, I have enough for me. Not for my family. To retire at age 40 requires a hell of a lot more money than I have now for obvious reasons, even if I don't plan on giving my kids a ton of money to live off of.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#97

Post by mc32 » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:16 PM UTC

sharadov wrote: post #91

baddox wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work during the pandemic is staggering. I wouldn't look at that and conclude that these people are just domesticated livestock who have no self-worth beyond their job. A lot of legitimate hobbies and even just normal socializing are completely shut down or heavily restricted in a lot of places.

It's unfortunate that passive entertainment is all that we crave, people in general have become "lazy", they simply don't want to put the effort in doing anything "active" > sports, art, music. And I disagree, you can pick a new sport, prior to the pandemic I worked out at the gym and played racquetball. Now I work out at home with kettle bells and resistance bands. Picked up mountain biking and tennis, which are "so…

Yes and no. Kayaking needs transport to a body of water. Biking is okay, but some people find it hard to breathe with a mask on while biking. Musical instruments work if you have a private residence and already know how to play. If you don't many people prefer learning from a tutor.

Of course there are some things we can do by ourselves, but not everyone is made that way. Lots and lots of people would rather while time away. "Dumb" by Nirvana captures this pretty well.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#98

Post by xwdv » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

If someone is going to say human beings are more than just workers it would be helpful to say exactly what else they can be that doesn't involve work.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#99

Post by benibela » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

sm4rk0 wrote: post #58

ooobit2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I believe that both capitalism and communism are broken because of broken brains of people who are "implementing" them. We need enlightened, self-organized people (no "leaders" or "representatives") as a starting point for any successful implementation of a Utopia (whatever -ism you like to call it). But no current system is going to support enlightenment of people because it would mean its end.

The Daemon/Freedom novels have an original solution for that

An highly advanced non-conscious AI takes over everything

Then people can rate each other. And gain experience levels like in a mmorpg. And then people work to improve their rating and levels

Hopefully the AI is smart enough to prevent fraudulent ratings.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#100

Post by im_down_w_otp » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

The anxiety of not knowing when or how you're going to be able to support yourself and/or your dependents can have a pretty chilling effect on one's openness to experience and idle creativity. It's very easy to get yourself into a cycle of existential paralysis where you can't/don't allow yourself any opportunity to do something normally considered "frivolous" despite the fact that there's no real opportunity for you to do something normally considered "useful".

Even though the actual opportunity cost of doing something "frivolous" is zero given the circumstances, the self-imposed perceived cost could feel much higher. There's a difference between not knowing what to do with oneself and feeling like one shouldn't be doing any of those things.