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What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

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Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#91

Post by discreteevent »

robertfw wrote: post #51
nico_h wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gorillas can use sign language, dogs can use speaking buttons, I’m sure dolphins or orcas could be taught something we would recognise as language, maybe even chimpanzé

There's quite a bit of speculation that dolphins, orcas, and sperm whales are already using communication with sufficient complexity to be seen as language. Here's a great talk that sent me on a recent youtube dive on the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH9boP9pksM

I think it was the sleeve notes of "Stop making sense" by Talking Heads that had a lot of little aphorisms and one of them was something like: 'Dolphins are very smart but they don't want to talk to us'

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#92

Post by mellosouls »

neonate wrote: post #56
mellosouls wrote: post #26

I can't read the article at the moment to judge, but going by some of the comments, the original famous essay of this ilk (exploring the idea of consciousness by imagining experiencing life as an very different species) might be of interest. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3...

https://archive.is/UsRxB

Thank you

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#93

Post by dschuetz »

The article is a good read. I was left with even more questions: How come that most documentaries explain the vibrant and undulating colors as some sort of communication, when in actuality there is no evidence that they can observe colors? Even more interesting is the question where do the chromatophores get their color "data" since there are no apparent color receptors in their eyes or skin so that they can mimic their surroundings for camouflage?

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#94

Post by wrycoder »

nurettin wrote: post #89
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rhetorical question to make you think: where do we draw the line between smut and art?

smut is gratituous and without meaning and has a singular purpose. It is pretty easy to tell apart.

Then this is art.

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#95

Post by JackFr »

powersnail wrote: post #68
nico_h wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gorillas can use sign language, dogs can use speaking buttons, I’m sure dolphins or orcas could be taught something we would recognise as language, maybe even chimpanzé

In the case of Gorilla, I think it wasn't quite the level of sign language that it learned, but vocabularies and phrases. I had a psychology professor who was part of the research teaching Koko sign language. And according to him, what Koko learned was really impressive, more than they anticipated. But it was still fundamentally different from human language. It was a long time ago, and I don't recall what exactly wa…

https://slate.com/technology/2014/08/koko-kanzi-and-ape-lang...

The science isn't there for gorillas communicating like humans. No publications, no data and Robin Williams anecdotes instead. If there was something there one would think there would be more scientists doing research down that path.

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#96

Post by GeneralMayhem »

nabla9 wrote: post #25

Octopus intelligence is phenomenal achievement when you consider the restrictions they have: 1. No social interaction or learning. Octopuses[1] live alone. 2. Short life span. Most of them live only few years in the wild. ---- [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plura...

I can think of a couple more major disadvantages they have.

3. Living underwater. Fire is the easiest way to extract energy from raw materials, and there's no real substitute. On land, there's a lot of local, controllable dynamism, but when you put things down they tend to stay where you put them, at least on short timescales. Water is exactly the opposite: lots of changes you can't control, but no way to get a lot of energy all in one place. Dolphins would have a hard time developing technology for the same reason, even if they had the dexterity.

4. Not being apex predators. This is part of the short lifespan problem, but I think it goes beyond that. Not many animals are going to mess with a human if they can help it, which means that it didn't take much for us to get to the point of having some free brain cycles to spend on improving things. An octopus is comparatively small and squishy, and shares an environment with comparatively more large and toothy carnivores, which means that even when they do manage to survive for more than a couple years they're doing it by spending most of their time eating and hiding.

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#97

Post by Double_Cast »

dschuetz wrote: post #93

The article is a good read. I was left with even more questions: How come that most documentaries explain the vibrant and undulating colors as some sort of communication, when in actuality there is no evidence that they can observe colors? Even more interesting is the question where do the chromatophores get their color "data" since there are no apparent color receptors in their eyes or skin so that they can mimic th…

From what I've read elsewhere, an octopus's pupils isolate colors via chromatic aberration. They can see a range of colors, but only one color at a time.

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#98

Post by nabla9 »

hhjinks wrote: post #78
nabla9 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer to both of your questions is that there was no evolutionary path. Evolution is blind and path dependent. It only responds to differential pressures affecting just now. Evolution is like greedy search https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_algorithm They didn't develop longevity because intelligence + longlivety does not provide immediate advantage. They didn't develop collective strategies because they the path…

> intelligence + longlivety does not provide immediate advantage You gotta wonder what sort of environmental pressures make intelligent animals less fit for survival by creating communities. Few predators? Very simple environments that don't require passing on information to future generations? High competition for resources?

Energy and nutritional requirements, longer time before reaching adulthood. For humans one of the limiting factor is the female pelvis. Births become more difficult.

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#99

Post by p1esk »

blaser-waffle wrote: post #88
BurningFrog wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respecting aside, I don't think we have that much to talk about with other intelligent Earth species.

"Yo, squid guy, what do you think about Seinfeld?" [...silence...]

You would get same response from me

Re: What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

#100

Post by [deleted] »

wombatmobile wrote: post #19
jbotz wrote: post #3

It's an old trope in Sci Fi that alien intelligences would be so different from us that we couldn't even begin to comprehend them. Octopuses belie that idea... although we share some DNA, our last common ancestors barely had a nervous system, so any similarities in cognition between us really are the product of paralllel evolution. And since their environments are also very different from ours, this parallel evoution…

Thank you for sharing those comments, jbotz. > We don't know how common or rare sentience and consciousness are in the Universe, but because of the Octopus I believe that if ever we do encounter non-terrestrial sentience we'll have no trouble recognizing it and will find that we have enough in common to establish communications and a relationship. And... what of terrestrial sentience?

[deleted]
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