Live data from Hacker News

The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

bbc.com

91–100 of 140 posts

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#91

I recently led an $80mm mixed use investment in a 10 derelict properties in an offbeat part of Memphis next to a few large government housing projects. Some takeaways reading the article. Banks are not the problem; banks are just doing their jobs by trying to make securable loans. Appraisals aren’t the problem; appraisers are hired and paid to be non-creative and non-biased they assign a value to property. If a group…

You say banks are just doing their job. But you also admit that they're short sighted. Doesn't that suggeat that they're not fulfilling the role that we need them to fulfil in society. I don't want to live in a society where you can only take on a project like this if you are wealthy or have a wealthy backer. Do you?

Banks job is to get money out there door and get it back with interest as agreed in loan documents. When I say short sighted, I intended to convey a lack of imagination for the future. Banks are asking, “how does this debt get serviced day1? Day30? Day365? What could interrupt those payments into the future? They do not buy into “but imagine what this will look like in 5 years!” that isn’t their job, that’s the investor’s job.

As for the wealthy gate keeper fulfilling a role in society: Well, generally yes I support that with the caveat that HNWI s are required for an $80mm risky investment, but not for a neighborhood coffee shop investment or for a business owner moving their business into Ensley, creating jobs in Ensley. But there must be people with money making decisions against the risk, and that’s important. Here’s why: why invest in Ensley vs the same investment in the middle of nowhere, Alabama? Why shouldn’t the US Government (the ultimate wealthy gatekeeper) invest in a bespoke vision for a large luxury mixed use community in the middle of miles of farmland? Because the investment doesn’t work, a total waste of money! The Ensley investment, as proposed, is an investment that doesn’t work. Capital is limited, capital flows to the highest risk adjusted returns, blah blah blah, and there are similarly dilapidated parts of Birmingham AL that have received massive investment because those investments DO work. Investors are investing in those parts of town instead. It’s a sliding scale balancing opportunities, risk, time and effort, and investing in an unproven area is risky proposition and someone needs to step forward to personally take on the unmarketable risk. For someone who knows what they are doing, there is tremendous opportunity for value. That’s what my company does.

There may be a path forward for Ensley, and I suggest starting with direct job creation, not finishing out a dilapidated building and hoping someone shows up to pay rent. If this person from the article wants to invest in Ensley, starting very small could be a ticket, building a case for investing in Ensley, and then convincing others to come along side, but there must be a leader taking a load of the initial risk, as well as ongoing risks, and those risks are great.

I should also mention, real estate development in general is incredibly complicated, risky, and difficult, even when the odds are in your favor starting out. Just getting the building open to public (Fire and life safety regs) is a major challenge, let alone ever making a return on investment. We typically receive plenty of rejections for loan proposals for development deals, or offers with onerous terms that are intended as a “nice way of saying no”.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#92
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I say you have to be 5'9 to get a loan, I'm not discriminating based on gender. It's just a total coincidence that more than 50% of men qualify and less than 10% of women qualify.

Every policy you can create will have differential impact on any group you create. The question is, was the policy created with the intent of racism. And this is for policies in the abstract. Debt is an incredibly dangerous tool. It is not charity to give someone a loan they cannot afford - I've personally experienced it and I've personally seen it destroy lives. When I see someone get denied for a loan or a mortgage…

>The question is, was the policy created with the intent of racism.

That's convenient for the people it doesn't affect. Not only do you not have to worry about the policies: by choosing not to be racist, you absolve yourself of blame or privilege for benefiting from them.

It also depends on you being able to infer another person's intentions. Intentional racists have always been in favour of covert racism in the form palatable policies that indirectly harm the groups they dislike and have always benefited from the unintentional bias of others.

Models are models, not a representation of reality. As long as the model is close enough to the local maximum that the providers keep making money, it keeps existing. And history suggests lenders are not perfect at calculating diversified risk.

The only assumption that OP made is that cheap credit makes it easier to make money, and that makes it easier to get cheap credit. That's not especially controversial.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#93
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the question is absolutely not whether ther policy was created with the intent of racism, because we don't live in a world where racism is defined as a guy in a pointy white hat who also happens to be the bank manager stringing black men up for cat-calling his daughter. Every policy has a differential impact, that doesn't mean we chose not to address them when we see them.

In that line of thinking ("banks are racist"), what's the exaplantion for why there's nobody disrupting the market, providing loans (at a premium) to minority investors and making off with large profits?

You've put "banks are racist" in speech marks, but I can't find where you're quoting it from.

The question is begging an easy answer to a structural problem. But note that, when a pandemic unfairly makes it expensive for businesses with disproportionately white shareholders to lend, the taxpayer spends trillions to make it cheaper.

Edit: Isn't that exactly what JP Morgan Chase are talking about doing about in the link?

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#94
post #7

This could be a chicken and egg problem, too. Banks lend on statistics, just as insurance companies have rates based upon the same. And insurance companies, for the most part, can assign rates based upon average accident rates, for identifiable traits. Like one's sex. Or where they live (a common way to get statistics without 'race/colour'). So what do I mean by the chicken and the egg, here? Well, imagine that black…

Well why don't black landowners simply not go bankrupt and change the statistic over the years ? Why don't black landowners support each other to make it easier for them to get a fiscal injection when needed ? > He had enough cash to buy eight buildings, all around 100 years old, in his majority black neighbourhood of Ensley, but he needed a banking loan to redevelop them. He thought it would be just a formality. Why…

Meanwhile the buyer in the white-majority area continues to buy 8, enjoys a higher leverage for the same interest, and makes a higher profit. And so it repeats. Leverage is forgiven when the faceless metaphorical person does it but, when it's given a black face, suddenly the black community as a whole has to answer to you?

Why didn't GM simply not go bankrupt?

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#95

I recently led an $80mm mixed use investment in a 10 derelict properties in an offbeat part of Memphis next to a few large government housing projects. Some takeaways reading the article. Banks are not the problem; banks are just doing their jobs by trying to make securable loans. Appraisals aren’t the problem; appraisers are hired and paid to be non-creative and non-biased they assign a value to property. If a group…

What is considered "proximity" for jobs? Would that be considered jobs in the neighborhood or adjacent neighborhods? It's not terribly far from downtown Bham.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#96
post #30

He bought eight buildings, then didn’t have enough left to redevelop any of them? While it sucks if you can’t get a loan, maybe you should have tried this with one property before trying to do it with 8 at the same time...

Maybe YCombinator companies should have tried bootstrapping.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#98
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I say you have to be 5'9 to get a loan, I'm not discriminating based on gender. It's just a total coincidence that more than 50% of men qualify and less than 10% of women qualify.

Every policy you can create will have differential impact on any group you create. The question is, was the policy created with the intent of racism. And this is for policies in the abstract. Debt is an incredibly dangerous tool. It is not charity to give someone a loan they cannot afford - I've personally experienced it and I've personally seen it destroy lives. When I see someone get denied for a loan or a mortgage…

Who cares about intent? Can I cash in a banker's "good intentions" elsewhere to get a loan for my business that I would otherwise qualify for if not for my name, zip code, alma mater, or my dialect? Can I pay the rent with the banker's "good intentions"?

The idea that racism exists exclusively inside the heads of racists, and that the actual physical material and financial harm it does to disadvantaged groups is unimportant compared to the subjective feelings of the person who is hurting them is so absurdly privileged that it borders on racism itself.

Imagine I burn your house down by pointing big fireworks directly at it. Would you be happy with the excuse "I didn't mean to hurt you, I was just aiming for the house with the least trees to get a better view of the explosion"? Are you suddenly happy with the loss of your house knowing that I targeted you for non-personal reasons?

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that line of thinking ("banks are racist"), what's the exaplantion for why there's nobody disrupting the market, providing loans (at a premium) to minority investors and making off with large profits?

You've put "banks are racist" in speech marks, but I can't find where you're quoting it from. The question is begging an easy answer to a structural problem. But note that, when a pandemic unfairly makes it expensive for businesses with disproportionately white shareholders to lend, the taxpayer spends trillions to make it cheaper. Edit: Isn't that exactly what JP Morgan Chase are talking about doing about in the lin…

"Banks are racist" is my very short summary of the supposed situation. The problem I have with such explanations is the same I have with "women get 20-30% less money for the absolute same work". Since labor is the major cost factor in most industries, any company exploiting that arbitrage would stomp their competitors.

Why wouldn't anyone want to get rich off of lending to minorities? Pecunia non olet, I'm sure even a committed racist would be quite happy to make 10% by lending to African Americans instead of 5% by lending to WASPs in a highly competitive market. They may not want to deal with them personally, but that wouldn't stop them. It's even more astonishing that rich Black people wouldn't do it, so I believe it requires a bit more of an explanation.

> But note that, when a pandemic unfairly makes it expensive for businesses with disproportionately white shareholders to lend, the taxpayer spends trillions to make it cheaper.

Are the shareholders mostly white? It's my understanding that most large investors are pension funds, insurance companies and the like, not individuals. We've supposedly saved the banks in pretty much every country because we'd wipe out those institutions, not because of some private individuals with giant investments.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#100
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not public services. And yet the public does bail them out which suggests a symbiotic relationship with the economy and that banks have some responsibility to the greater whole.

> yet the public does bail them out Involuntarily, due to corruption of public officials. Don't read too much into it. There have been some attempts to run banks in an "altruistic" manner. I don't know of a successful one, just failures.

Corruption has nothing to do with it. Giving extra aid to the people on top while ignoring the people who are struggling is ideology, not corruption.
Post reply on HN