Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation • Hacker News Board

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#91

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #86

matthberg wrote: post #66

Why was this flagged? There's another thread of this exact same article on the front page at the moment, too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23866926

When you see [flagged] on a story it means users flagged it. We don't know why users flag things, but it's probably not hard to understand in this case. The topic is inflammatory, the threads have both been flamewars, and there's not much information to discuss. Incidentally, some of the users flagging the story are people who, I know from their usernames, are sympathetic to the cause of the protestors. The flagging…

I absolutely believe it is ideologically driven.

HN has never been a site to shy away from political flamewars. You can look back through the various posts we have on China here where people rightfully claim the government in China has been responsible for various atrocities. Those threads fall along similar political lines and there's no real debate to be had, yet they still survive [1]. Hell, we can even talk about the recent threads on Trump [2] to see similar threads explode in popularity and make it through unflagged.

But we have a very obvious instance of something that all sides should be able to agree on, which is the feds picking up people off the streets without identification or recourse. This shouldn't even have political contention because both the left and the right should be able to agree it's a Bad Thing. Especially here on HN where there's a running trend of anything that involves censorship or rights being taken away [3] [4] [5] [6] gets massive amounts of traction but a story of very obvious government overreach ends up getting flagged.

This isn't to say that I think all topics are driven like this. As you've linked before, there are various discussions on police brutality made here on HN. But I've noticed those threads also go through significant periods of being flagged or pushed off the page until there's enough users to vouch for it or vote it up to bypass those flags. Which is to say I firmly believe stories nowadays are being flagged not on the basis of discussion but because of ideological reasons even if there are a few users using flags as it is intended. Otherwise why do those other stories explode in popularity considering they have the same levels of political flamebaiting?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23739567

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23347155

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23223219

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23758547

[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22954765

[6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23681596

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#92

Post by mindslight » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 8:40 PM UTC

blisseyGo wrote: post #88

mindslight wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So can anybody with two minutes and a clothes iron. Actual police announce themselves, state their intentions, follow deliberate procedures, create public reports, answer to bystanders, and generally work to uphold law and order with everybody else. Regardless of how they got the costumes, the aggressors in that video are violent criminals.

They don't just have police badges, they also have patches on their shoulders which is for DHS. This was reported couple days ago that DHS will be coming in to stop the rioting: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-co... Media's claim that they are "unidentified" is simply false.

Two patches?! Okay then, three minutes since the iron is already warm. The substantive argument is about the complete lack of process and accountability.

Since you seem to be here to reflexively argue, the only thing I have left to say is that you need to realize that the federal government deploying soldiers into American cities against the express wishes of the local governments is utterly anti-Freedom, anti-American, and straight up totalitarian. We're witnessing the destruction of our country, and you're cheerleading to the tune of Party propaganda. It's never too late to snap out of that filter bubble and come to your senses.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#93

Post by pvg » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #91

dang wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you see [flagged] on a story it means users flagged it. We don't know why users flag things, but it's probably not hard to understand in this case. The topic is inflammatory, the threads have both been flamewars, and there's not much information to discuss. Incidentally, some of the users flagging the story are people who, I know from their usernames, are sympathetic to the cause of the protestors. The flagging…

I absolutely believe it is ideologically driven. HN has never been a site to shy away from political flamewars. You can look back through the various posts we have on China here where people rightfully claim the government in China has been responsible for various atrocities. Those threads fall along similar political lines and there's no real debate to be had, yet they still survive [1]. Hell, we can even talk about…

all sides should be able to agree on

In reality, that's just not the case. Lots of topics just lead to low-quality discussions and those are flagged. I'd be inclined to flag something with this submission's title without as much as looking at the discussion thread.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#94

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #93

fzeroracer wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely believe it is ideologically driven. HN has never been a site to shy away from political flamewars. You can look back through the various posts we have on China here where people rightfully claim the government in China has been responsible for various atrocities. Those threads fall along similar political lines and there's no real debate to be had, yet they still survive [1]. Hell, we can even talk about…

all sides should be able to agree on In reality, that's just not the case. Lots of topics just lead to low-quality discussions and those are flagged. I'd be inclined to flag something with this submission's title without as much as looking at the discussion thread.

Sure, but my point being that I linked multiple topics which lead to very obvious low quality discussions that don't end up being flagged. In fact, they end up becoming the topic of the day in many ways. So the argument becomes why do those topics end up becoming popular and topics such as this one do not?

Obviously I'm already giving away my ideological slant here which is that I firmly believe the story in question is horrific. But what I find frustrating is that flagging only works if the userbase agrees to flag topics that will lead to low quality discussions. If the userbase ends up not flagging those topics, then flagging comes down to ideological divides and that's what I see.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#95

Post by blisseyGo » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

WalterGR wrote: post #55

blisseyGo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Local law enforcement is being handicapped by mayors and DAs who are letting go of the violent rioters free without any charges.

Could you provide some examples for this claim as well as your others?

Just look at Chicago, New York etc. Both have broken historical records of shootings as well as fatalities. Portland has been rioting for over 45 days and the Mayor and Governor is not even stopping rioters from burning down federal property.

23 million in damages to federal property including courthouse:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/violent-demonstrations-in-port...

> A review of court records showed 59 people arrested during Portland demonstrations had charges dismissed, including several people arrested on felony charges.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/criminal-cha...

The person who set the court house on fire also got his charges dropped.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#96

Post by pvg » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #94

pvg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

all sides should be able to agree on In reality, that's just not the case. Lots of topics just lead to low-quality discussions and those are flagged. I'd be inclined to flag something with this submission's title without as much as looking at the discussion thread.

Sure, but my point being that I linked multiple topics which lead to very obvious low quality discussions that don't end up being flagged. In fact, they end up becoming the topic of the day in many ways. So the argument becomes why do those topics end up becoming popular and topics such as this one do not? Obviously I'm already giving away my ideological slant here which is that I firmly believe the story in question…

Things drop off the front page through flagging long before they pick up enough flags for [flagged] status. So I'm not sure your 'not flagged' metric is actually right.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#97

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #96

fzeroracer wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but my point being that I linked multiple topics which lead to very obvious low quality discussions that don't end up being flagged. In fact, they end up becoming the topic of the day in many ways. So the argument becomes why do those topics end up becoming popular and topics such as this one do not? Obviously I'm already giving away my ideological slant here which is that I firmly believe the story in question…

Things drop off the front page through flagging long before they pick up enough flags for [flagged] status. So I'm not sure your 'not flagged' metric is actually right.

It works for the low effort, low interest stories. So the stuff that trolls might submit or stories that are otherwise uninteresting.

But what I'm referring to are the high interest, high flamebait stories. Which all of the stories I've linked are examples of where the discussion largely falls down along partisan lines and the end result is poor quality discussion. Then there are stories which fall somewhere in the middle such as this one, which are high interest but end up flagged over ideological reasons. One of the ways you can tell that is specifically the case for this story is because it's been submitted a number of times now [1] with a large amount of votes and a varying degree of flags.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23870693

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#98

Post by pvg » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #97

pvg wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things drop off the front page through flagging long before they pick up enough flags for [flagged] status. So I'm not sure your 'not flagged' metric is actually right.

It works for the low effort, low interest stories. So the stuff that trolls might submit or stories that are otherwise uninteresting. But what I'm referring to are the high interest, high flamebait stories. Which all of the stories I've linked are examples of where the discussion largely falls down along partisan lines and the end result is poor quality discussion. Then there are stories which fall somewhere in the m…

How can you tell the 'degree of flag' other than show their time on FP, though? I'm saying there's no real way to evaluate your claim with the links you've given because they just show you, dunno, that it was a story on HN. And again, 'high interest' is just an assumption of yours. A story can be high interest and lots of people can think it's just a poor HN fit.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#99

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #98

fzeroracer wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works for the low effort, low interest stories. So the stuff that trolls might submit or stories that are otherwise uninteresting. But what I'm referring to are the high interest, high flamebait stories. Which all of the stories I've linked are examples of where the discussion largely falls down along partisan lines and the end result is poor quality discussion. Then there are stories which fall somewhere in the m…

How can you tell the 'degree of flag' other than show their time on FP, though? I'm saying there's no real way to evaluate your claim with the links you've given because they just show you, dunno, that it was a story on HN. And again, 'high interest' is just an assumption of yours. A story can be high interest and lots of people can think it's just a poor HN fit.

That's why I qualified my claim with 'believe'. There's no way for either of us to validate our claims because flags are not public, so all we have are inferences and figuring out what stories survive and why.

But this goes back to my main point is that what people think is a good fit on HN boils down to ideological reasons. That's why stories about Youtube banning someone gets a large number of votes upwards with complaints of censorship while stories like this one get flagged.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#100

Post by pvg » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #99

pvg wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you tell the 'degree of flag' other than show their time on FP, though? I'm saying there's no real way to evaluate your claim with the links you've given because they just show you, dunno, that it was a story on HN. And again, 'high interest' is just an assumption of yours. A story can be high interest and lots of people can think it's just a poor HN fit.

That's why I qualified my claim with 'believe'. There's no way for either of us to validate our claims because flags are not public, so all we have are inferences and figuring out what stories survive and why. But this goes back to my main point is that what people think is a good fit on HN boils down to ideological reasons. That's why stories about Youtube banning someone gets a large number of votes upwards with co…

Sure but you started by saying these things weren't flagged and they probably were. Lots of things are flagged, it doesn't take a lot of flags to throw something off the front page. I'm sure people flag for 'ideological' reasons but I think the chances are pretty good it largely evens out.

PG's most recent essay got banished off the FP (correctly, if you ask me) within a couple of hours, with zillions of upvotes and a thread made of pure HN hell. You can actually interpret that outcome N different ways to support a preferred narrative. One might be that HN is just a place for oblivious techbros. Another one might be that HN's immune system worked and deep-sixed the thing.