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Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

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Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#91

Post by axaxs »

paulmd wrote: post #62
roamerz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is by design. I wish our state (Oregon) was of similar design so that all interests are represented. As it is now the populous centers, mostly Portland and Eugene, dictate their values to the rest of the state.

Rural areas are already heavily overrepresented in the american system. We certainly don't need to put the thumb on the scale further. The ultimate problem is that "the rest of the state" (for virtually all states) is empty, hardly anybody lives there, and letting a minority override the will of everybody else is tyranny of the minority. Taken to the extreme, this is ultimately what killed South Africa and Rhodesia a…

If you break this argument down, it gets really muddled.

Let's pick a state - Kansas, nice and rectangle. Let's say it was empty, and 10 farmers moved in and divided it 10 ways. They are happy to themselves on their huge plots of land, doing their own thing.

One farmer needs extra cash, so sells off a dozen acres. That dozen acres puts in a neighborhood of 20 houses. Now that 20 houses controls the entire state, effectively. They decide people shouldn't be able to own so much land, and owning more than 10 acres is illegal.

Sure it's contrived, but you start to notice how it's not as simple as 'majority rules is best.'

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#92

Post by Proziam »

ninkendo wrote: post #70
roamerz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is by design. I wish our state (Oregon) was of similar design so that all interests are represented. As it is now the populous centers, mostly Portland and Eugene, dictate their values to the rest of the state.

The populous centers have more people, so it makes sense that they have more say. Moreover, why does people's location on a 2d grid matter at all for grouping people under representatives? Why not the first letter of their surname? Their age? Maybe the altitude of their home? Seems just as arbitrary.

> The populous centers have more people, so it makes sense that they have more say.

This is a rather short-sighted position. There's a reason the tyranny of the majority was avoided, and it's because the majority will always vote for their own benefit. If they do so, it almost always hurts the 49%.

You have to balance the needs of a state as if it were a living organism. You can't simply optimize everything for the heart when the lungs have needs as well, or the body dies.

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#93

Post by Amezarak »

imchillyb wrote: post #40
varbhat wrote: post #32

Can UBI(Universal Basic Income) scheme help to overcome Unemployment crisis ?

> Can UBI scheme help to overcome Unemployment crisis ? @varbhat You realize that UBI requires monies, right? The US Federal government, and most states, are bankrupt. There is no money for this years bills. There was no money for last years bills, and we keep borrowing at exorbitant interest rates. Our deficit (shortfall for this year) is -more than- 2.7 trillion dollars. Our debt (shortfall for previous years) is -…

Real interest rates on treasuries are negative. That is, adjusted for inflation, people are giving away money to the government when they loan it money. That's the opposite of exorbitant.

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/i...

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#94

Post by mindslight »

salmon30salmon wrote: post #64
syspec wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that this is not discussed more, or that congress and the president have already "moved on" is so frustrating. The president should be making distributing this aid, and fixing the unemployment benefits mess his priority for these people. Instead he's doing a photo op with cans of beans in the Oval Office, and another photo op down the street with a bible he holds like an alien artifact

Trump messed up a ton in this crises, and has a lot to answer for. This is not one of them. Unemployment is almost all within the remit of the individual states. The government approved additional payments to each state, but the state government is responsible for dispersing and managing the unemployment system.

Fiscal and monetary policy are under the purview of the federal government. Individual states are stuck between a rock and a hard place - needing to ramp up spending to respond to the crisis, while receiving much less tax revenue. States can only respond by taking on more debt, further compounding the cause of this financial jam. Hence red states passing the pain downwards by turning the screws on workers. The current response just takes us further into the debt spiral, making the next crisis even worse - if we're lucky enough to have a next one!

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#95

Post by fraXis »

dominotw wrote: post #37
ethanwillis wrote: post #2

Our government has failed in their response at local, state, and federal levels. The other thing we're going to be seeing soon is that these Unemployment programs have failed to do what they're ordained to do. This is an anecdote, but my brother was furloughed and has been waiting on any money (including the first stimulus) for literally months

> any money (including the first stimulus) for literally months I got mine almost immediately. What is the difference between me and your brother, I don't understand.

My daughter has been waiting since March 19th for her EDD benefits. When EDD sent her the initial paperwork (after she signed up online), it had a different social security number listed for her (she typed in her correct social security number online).

The letter stated that she needed to provide proof of her social security number.

She has tried to do that for four months now. She has called them, written them snail mail letters along with proof that they have the wrong social security number, and numerous faxes. They keep telling her that the ID fraud department will eventually reach out to her. It has not happened yet after all this time. We have even reached out to the California Governor's office for help. Nothing has worked.

If she did not currently live with me and have me financially support her through all of this, she would be broke and possibly homeless.

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#96

Post by coryrc »

ninkendo wrote: post #70
roamerz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is by design. I wish our state (Oregon) was of similar design so that all interests are represented. As it is now the populous centers, mostly Portland and Eugene, dictate their values to the rest of the state.

The populous centers have more people, so it makes sense that they have more say. Moreover, why does people's location on a 2d grid matter at all for grouping people under representatives? Why not the first letter of their surname? Their age? Maybe the altitude of their home? Seems just as arbitrary.

Just one example: city people trying to ban guns statewide while rural people live in places with dangerous wildlife (and more) will cause preventable deaths. In a city far more freedom must be curtailed in order for people to tolerate living near each other and rural folk often live out there precisely because they can't be happy making that trade-off.

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#97

Post by fzeroracer »

axaxs wrote: post #91
paulmd wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rural areas are already heavily overrepresented in the american system. We certainly don't need to put the thumb on the scale further. The ultimate problem is that "the rest of the state" (for virtually all states) is empty, hardly anybody lives there, and letting a minority override the will of everybody else is tyranny of the minority. Taken to the extreme, this is ultimately what killed South Africa and Rhodesia a…

If you break this argument down, it gets really muddled. Let's pick a state - Kansas, nice and rectangle. Let's say it was empty, and 10 farmers moved in and divided it 10 ways. They are happy to themselves on their huge plots of land, doing their own thing. One farmer needs extra cash, so sells off a dozen acres. That dozen acres puts in a neighborhood of 20 houses. Now that 20 houses controls the entire state, effe…

If you were to break down the argument even further, let's say Kansas had a farmer that owned 90% of the land. The remaining 10% of the land was shared between 1000 people.

Why should that single farmer be allowed to control the entire state over the rest of the 1000 people?

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#98

Post by axaxs »

fzeroracer wrote: post #97
axaxs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you break this argument down, it gets really muddled. Let's pick a state - Kansas, nice and rectangle. Let's say it was empty, and 10 farmers moved in and divided it 10 ways. They are happy to themselves on their huge plots of land, doing their own thing. One farmer needs extra cash, so sells off a dozen acres. That dozen acres puts in a neighborhood of 20 houses. Now that 20 houses controls the entire state, effe…

If you were to break down the argument even further, let's say Kansas had a farmer that owned 90% of the land. The remaining 10% of the land was shared between 1000 people. Why should that single farmer be allowed to control the entire state over the rest of the 1000 people?

I'm not making that argument, either. I guess I'm playing devil's advocate. I honestly don't think either scenario is correct, so what's the solution?

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#99

Post by nightski »

Paradox0 wrote: post #83
nitrogen wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think the people who live somewhere should have a say in what happens there? Having city dwellers decide what happens in rural areas is the tyranny of imperialism.

No, it doesn't make sense that people should have greater voting power based on their location in the same polity. Your argument is equally valid in reverse -- there's no reason why rural dwellers should decide what happens in cities. Why should your vote count for more because I have more neighbors than you do?

While city dwellers vote may be technically less powerful on a per capita basis, they make up for it in numbers. There are simply more of you with similar needs/wants. Not to mention far more money to achieve those needs and wants. In a city an individual's needs from his/her government are just less unique.

Re: Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment

#100

Post by fzeroracer »

coryrc wrote: post #96
ninkendo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The populous centers have more people, so it makes sense that they have more say. Moreover, why does people's location on a 2d grid matter at all for grouping people under representatives? Why not the first letter of their surname? Their age? Maybe the altitude of their home? Seems just as arbitrary.

Just one example: city people trying to ban guns statewide while rural people live in places with dangerous wildlife (and more) will cause preventable deaths. In a city far more freedom must be curtailed in order for people to tolerate living near each other and rural folk often live out there precisely because they can't be happy making that trade-off.

Just another example: rural people trying to ban mask-wearing statewide while city people live in close proximity will cause preventable deaths.

In fact, we see that scenario happening right now here in Texas where cities are not allowed govern. See also: Georgia.

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