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The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

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Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#91
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to say yes or no, could you link that research? I'd love to deep dive into it.

Markets are reactionary and thus too slow.

I think many would argue regulations are also reactionary (I.e., there were no laws to prohibit an action because it wasn’t anticipated until after it happened).

Example: there were no laws preventing diluting stock during a hostile takeover until after Vanderbilt tried buying out the Erie Railroad and diluting stock was a way to swindle him [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_War#Watered-down_stocks

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#92

The low-regulation approach seem great until you find out how far businesses will go to cut their costs and increase profits: you end up with situations like flammable cladding installed on high-rise towers, horse meat sold as beef, or bleach sold as a cure for Covid-19 (one of these may be fictional). The line between legitimate business and scam becomes impossible to define.

Lowering regulation does not mean no regulation. And outright fraud or misrepresentation would still be punished by the courts.

The problems described in the parent comment exist now. Why should we lower regulation given that starting point?

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote about that here: https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/ I think in part that’s why we have polarization. We have two extremes pulling each party apart, social media (as this article suggests) is pushing the left. The right is largely getting disenfranchised so they are getting more fanatical. It’s a recipe for an eventual civil war or at the very least the road to dictatorship. To be honest, both s…

I think that's mostly accurate, but I think it's the social media companies who are pushing the left. There are, or until recently were, plenty of moderate and right-wing people on social media, but the companies have so many ways of tilting the scale in favor of their preferred political views, they've intentionally created echo chambers where only far-left political opinions are acceptable. And that leaves people f…

I think what we're seeing is that political activism on social media skews to the left. Left-wing politics has always been more activism-minded and right-wing activism has always tended to the extreme, so this is not exactly news. What's news is that social media platforms like Twitter (and even Facebook, due to "real names" and a focus on close social relationships) are more favorable to mindless activism than to careful deliberation, which benefits more from traditional blogs and BBS-like forums.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we've been trained to fixate on labels, because it limits our tools to solve problems, and the people in power don't want us solving these kinds of problems. Depending on which labels you (general you) ascribe to yourself, most ideas are DOA, because they don't fit in your identity box. Who cares if it's free market or not? A strong union presence is significantly more effective than a minimum wage. One amoun…

I don't think I've ever seen anything resembling a free market in labour, and I doubt that it would be tolerated. It would be a market where wage rates could go up or down depending on economic conditions. In reality, people get very unhappy if wages go down and companies are more likely to cut costs by sacking staff. It would be a market where if you were unemployed, but qualified, you could approach a company and o…

The only way we can have anything resembling a free market for labour is if those seeking to sell their labour can be assured that failing to do so for a given period of time will not result in homelessness, starvation, and death.

In other words, until and unless we provide everyone with a basic income sufficient to support a modest living.

As it stands, and as you observed, pay for work is based primarily on some very old-fashioned notions of the value of the people who do the work—which is to say, anyone doing menial jobs is obviously a lesser being than those who tell them what to do. Then anyone telling them what to do is a better human being than their subordinates, and so on, until we reach the logical conclusion that CEOs are like unto gods (or at least kings), and must be treated as such.

This is not an indefinitely sustainable model, particularly in the face of increasing automation and increasing income/wealth inequality.

A basic income would result in people only doing the terrible jobs when there's actually sufficient incentive for them to do them, since they're no longer driven by desperation. Thus, assuming other external pressures haven't come into play, the wages for such jobs would rise until they actually compensated for the extra (sometimes literal) crap people have to deal with to do them.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#95

The low-regulation approach seem great until you find out how far businesses will go to cut their costs and increase profits: you end up with situations like flammable cladding installed on high-rise towers, horse meat sold as beef, or bleach sold as a cure for Covid-19 (one of these may be fictional). The line between legitimate business and scam becomes impossible to define.

Lowering regulation does not mean no regulation. And outright fraud or misrepresentation would still be punished by the courts.

I feel like these debates are purely semantic. "low regulation" can mean anything.

The devil is always in the details. Every regulation is different.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's mostly accurate, but I think it's the social media companies who are pushing the left. There are, or until recently were, plenty of moderate and right-wing people on social media, but the companies have so many ways of tilting the scale in favor of their preferred political views, they've intentionally created echo chambers where only far-left political opinions are acceptable. And that leaves people f…

I think what we're seeing is that political activism on social media skews to the left. Left-wing politics has always been more activism-minded and right-wing activism has always tended to the extreme, so this is not exactly news. What's news is that social media platforms like Twitter (and even Facebook, due to "real names" and a focus on close social relationships) are more favorable to mindless activism than to ca…

That doesn't explain events like Apple, Google, Visa, and Mastercard all banning Gab. Reportedly, Visa and Mastercard even refuse to do business with Gab's founder's family.

Things like that aren't being driven by grassroots activism. These are decisions made by billionaires.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#97
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, there is indeed such a thing as left-libertarianism. Last time I checked, its proponents were trying pretty hard to argue that it's not an outright contradiction.

> Yep, there is indeed such a thing as left-libertarianism. Last time I checked, its proponents were trying pretty hard to argue that it's not an outright contradiction. How is it a contradiction?

Libertarianism is essentially built on a single ethic, the non-aggression principle, which is simply that interfering with someone’s property by force is wrong. And that property is what one mixes their labor with. In other words people own the fruits of their labor, and consequently voluntary exchange or gift is the only ethical way to acquire property. In simpler words, libertarians believe stealing is wrong and seek to apply that ethic consistently. Thus the popular libertarian maxim “tax is theft”.

According to libertarians government as it’s currently practiced steals (takes by force) the fruits of individual’s labor called taxation, along with compelling the use of property through force, called regulation. The argument is more complicated than this but that’s the essence. So “left libertarians” supporting taxation for the purposes of welfare programs contradicts the ethical foundation of libertarianism.

It’s a contradiction to advocate for the lack of government regulation on the basis of violating libertarian ethics while simultaneously advocating for welfare programs which violate that same ethic.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#98
post #4

Maybe it’s that I have very weird friends, but pretty much no libertarian I’ve met has defended zero redistribution. They all hate the way it’s done now, and favor other arrangements like a negative income tax or UBI (as a substitute for government-run services). I haven’t seen all the questionnaire, but the questions shown in the article could be read both ways.

Libertarian and redistribution have an obvious logic conflict, so you may be right about very weird friends. Libertarian base idea is freedom, as much as possible; redistribution is the opposite of freedom because you work, earn money and someone comes and takes it from you. Makes sense?

That conflict is only there if you assume redistribution is forced rather than opt-in.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nordic model is interesting but one has to look at it through the perspective of the local culture and mentality. Something that has been working in Sweden for 20 years,may never work in the US and so on. Also, the education system played a huge role in shaping those countries. I remember going to the underground in Helsinki and to my surprise seeing no barriers: people were still paying and I saw very very few who w…

There are more ticket inspectors on the Helsinki metro than you'd think. Anyone trying to freeload is bound to get caught within a few days, the fine is large, and it goes on your credit report so it can really affect your life. Also note that the Helsinki metro model is very similar to that in Vienna, so not a distinctly Nordic high-trust thing.

I lived in Helsinki for a year about 12 years ago. Taking a ride without paying was doable.Tried to do the same in Copenhagen- had to change the train like 5 times for the sake of going 3 stops further,as there were so many inspectors. Stockholm,on the other hand, had barriers but I used to see people jumping them all the time, especially in the evening,at night.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#100
post #37

Isn’t it kind of ridiculous when you have to make up such words ‘cause you insist describing people’s complex preference and belief system on a single damn dimension?! I am both left and right, depending what issue we are talking about. And sometime I am center as well. Yet when it’s time to vote... I have exactly 2 real choices.

I think getting rid of 'winner takes all' elections and replacing it with an "order of preference ranking" system might help. This way people would be less concerned about picking the guy who is "least undesirable to fellow voters" and more concerned about picking their actual preference.
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