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Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

theguardian.com

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Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#91

Post by M2Ys4U »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #67
URSpider94 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the electrical grid, frequency is proportional to voltage. When the frequency drops, it means that the supplied voltage is also falling. Likewise, if you go over-frequency, then the voltage will rise. Traditionally, the inertia of thousands of tons of spinning generator turbines across the system provided this inertia, but with more and more nonlinear sources (and also nonlinear loads), that balance is disappearin…

Batteries are also becoming popular for the same reason. The more batteries you have the easier it is to deal with fluctuations in supply and demand as you can switch them on and off in milliseconds and they can serve to both supply GW to the grid or absorb it from the grid. Flywheels are useful because they store a lot of energy and don't require a lot of energy to keep them spinning (i.e. topped up with energy). Si…

Also worth noting:

We haven't even burned coal for the purposes of providing power[0] since the 11th of May. That's the longest period without coal being burned since 1882.

[0] Sort of. A couple of coal plants underwent maintenance and had to be fired up and provide power to fully test them. We had a total of around 21 hours of coal plants supplying energy and we're now at day 18 of a coal-free run, and prior to the test we had almost 68 days!

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#92

Post by opwieurposiu »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #53
msandford wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spinning flywheel doesn't just spin on its own. It gets spun up and kept spinning by an electric motor/generator I have to imagine. So you're limited as to how much power can go in or out by the size of that motor/generator. If it's a 100kw peak electrical machine then it can provide at most 100kw of instantaneous power to the grid while at the same time slowing down by however much is required to deliver that po…

Thats not the theoretical limit though. This is a physical device with moving parts. What if the bearing fails? What if the weight disintegrates due to a manufacturing fault? Suddenly all that stored energy wants to go somewhere.

The flywheel will have breakers to prevent excessive inflow or outflow of power.

In a conventional plant, the spinning machinery is monitored by vibration sensors. If the vibration exceeds some threshold, a "Turbine Trip" occurs and the offending generator is disconnected from the grid. It then slowly spins down, dissipating energy via it's own friction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbine_trip

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#93

Post by closeparen »

_whiteCaps_ wrote: post #4

> This is the first time a project of this kind will be used anywhere in the world and ESO believes it could be a “huge step forward” in running a zero-carbon electricity grid. I'm trying to find some stats on this, because flywheel UPS aren't a new idea: https://www.finning.com/en_IE/products/new/power-systems/ele... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#...

I remember standing next to a washing-machine-sized one of these in the server room at a local factory.

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#94

Post by rbanffy »

_sbrk wrote: post #72
rbanffy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people say Hungarian is hard...

Lol. Reminds me of The Crown where Price Charles is learning Welsh. However, at least all the letters are familiar. Asian languages are at least an order of magnitude harder for westerners.

In Irish, at least, the letters being familiar doesn't help when they sound totally different.

When I moved here, I arrogantly stated I was going to learn Irish. I'm humbled now.

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#95

Post by JshWright »

closeparen wrote: post #93
_whiteCaps_ wrote: post #4

> This is the first time a project of this kind will be used anywhere in the world and ESO believes it could be a “huge step forward” in running a zero-carbon electricity grid. I'm trying to find some stats on this, because flywheel UPS aren't a new idea: https://www.finning.com/en_IE/products/new/power-systems/ele... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#...

I remember standing next to a washing-machine-sized one of these in the server room at a local factory.

Yeah, I remember going to work with my dad (~20 years ago) at a datacenter for a large national bank. Power to the building was supplied by three large flywheels, which were in turn (usually) kept spinning by electric motors driven by street power. If they lost outside power, they had three diesel engines that they could spin up and clutch in before the flywheels spun down too far.

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#96

Post by sleepydog »

tankenmate wrote: post #34
Ballas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is different in this case is it is not really an energy storage system (at least that is not the main intended purpose), but only to provide stability to the grid frequency. A huge flywheel in a vacuum to provide a reference to millions of distributed PLLs. I don't think the idea is to always have it spin at a fixed rate with minimal losses. In the case where a flywheel is used as a UPS, the rate at which it is…

You can get constant spin rate but variable energy storage / release by adjusting the moment of inertia, e.g. if you have movable weights within the rotor you can move these inboard or outboard, moving it inboard uses energy while increasing the spin rate, and moving it outboard releases energy while slowing the rate. Using this in combination with "conventional" direct axle energy input / release means you can store…

It's kind of off topic, but your description reminded me of the executioner's sword "Terminus Est" from the Book of the New Sun series. It had a liquid metal (mercury I think) core that would collect at the base when held upright, making it easy to hold. When it was swung, the liquid would flow to the tip, putting more weight at the point of contact.

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#97

Post by DonaldFisk »

frobozz wrote: post #20
DrBazza wrote: post #8

This is a consequence of the UK having little capacity for pumped-storage, i.e. hydro-electric. We don't really have the height, and we have "areas of outstanding natural beauty" that cannot be built in easily, so we need alternatives to store the energy. The rest of the world just builds a dam, creates a new lake, and moves on.

Cofiwch Dryweryn!

Remember Tryweryn!

In case anyone's wondering what this is about, in the 1960s the Tryweryn Valley in Wales contained a village (Capel Celyn) which was evacuated and the valley flooded to make a new reservoir to provide water for Liverpool. There's a portion of a nearby wall painted with these words.

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#98

Post by ggm »

This sounds like a fancy syncon. They have been a thing in power network engineering for a long time.

I can believe it has "new features" but the underlying mechanics of a Syncon are not new. This may just be something good, being over sold by a company with an interest in boosting.

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#99

Post by [deleted] »

Ballas wrote: post #10
_whiteCaps_ wrote: post #4

> This is the first time a project of this kind will be used anywhere in the world and ESO believes it could be a “huge step forward” in running a zero-carbon electricity grid. I'm trying to find some stats on this, because flywheel UPS aren't a new idea: https://www.finning.com/en_IE/products/new/power-systems/ele... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#...

What is different in this case is it is not really an energy storage system (at least that is not the main intended purpose), but only to provide stability to the grid frequency. A huge flywheel in a vacuum to provide a reference to millions of distributed PLLs. I don't think the idea is to always have it spin at a fixed rate with minimal losses. In the case where a flywheel is used as a UPS, the rate at which it is…

[deleted]

Re: Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

#100

Post by sova »

ggm wrote: post #98

This sounds like a fancy syncon. They have been a thing in power network engineering for a long time. I can believe it has "new features" but the underlying mechanics of a Syncon are not new. This may just be something good, being over sold by a company with an interest in boosting.

This looks like the electrical equivalent of a weir
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