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Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

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Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#91

> When she got her unemployment benefits, she realized something unheard of: She was making more money not working. The temporary COVID unemployment bill was so rushed that they didn’t index the unemployment to the person’s earnings. If you lost your job or had your hours reduced, you get an extra $600/week on top of state unemployment. About half of people receiving this are receiving more from the combined unemploy…

> The temporary COVID unemployment bill was so rushed that they didn’t index the unemployment to the person’s earnings.

No, it was a deliberate choice to make total benefits bump up to approximately full earnings at a low-but-not-quite-bottom-barrel working income with common state formulas while providing (proportionate to income) less benefit to high income workers (presumed to, when working, have greater surplus income.)

That at the very low end this meant that benefits would be above usual working income was known, but considered by supporters to have limited moral hazard since it required involuntarily becoming unemployed to qualify and unemployment was (and remains) high so that most people with it wouldn't be able to get new jobs anyhow, because of propensity to spend at the low end, the extra income was also viewed as general stimulus as well as individual relief.

It was also controversial from the beginning, with the Right raising moral hazard arguments that it would encourage people to become and remain unemployed, as if that were an option for most recipients.

> or assuming that our government has enough money lying around to pay everyone this much all of the time

Federal spending doesn't come from money laying around, in the first place, it comes from money the government decides to have because it wants to spend it. Even if you buy into the mythology of the fisc, marginal spending comes out of borrowing at, typically, very low interest rates (currently, IIRC, at negative real interest rates), not

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because bailouts (usually) make the government money in the long run. They're in the form of low-interest loans, they aren't just handing out money to corporations.

>They're in the form of low-interest loans, they aren't just handing out money to corporations. This is false as related to the PPP loans ($700B program, to put that in perspective during the 2008 financial crisis law makers passed an $800B stimulus to prevent total financial collapse). Its argued the banks paid that 2008 money back with interest (I won't touch that claim), but the PPP loans ($700B) are intended to b…

That's for small businesses, not corporations.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#93
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our Quantitative easing and corporate bailouts are in the trillions, why would we not pay out significantly less for people who are struggling to find jobs? Why does the till start counting when its normal people affected?

> why would we not pay out significantly less for people who are struggling to find jobs? The CARES act allocated most of the money to individuals, state and local governments, public health, and education initiatives. The amount given to large corporations (much in the form of loans that will be paid back) is less than that given to individuals: NPR has a good breakdown. The idea that corporations are receiving “tri…

That breakdown is missing the trillion dollars of corporate debt that the fed is now engaging in purchasing. Correction: in terms of direct corporate debt purchase, they have currently committed to less than half a trillion dollars of purchases independent of the CARES act. But the breakdown is also missing $210 billion of reduced corporate taxes!

The CARES act is a good attempt at providing fair outcomes for everyone, but that is just one of the things the fed is funding. Take a look at their balance sheet from their own website: it went up over 2 trillion in the blink of an eye and they are not done yet: https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst_recenttren...

There are winners and losers in what is going on now, and corporate America is without doubt the biggest winner. By proxy, the wealthiest Americans that are the biggest owners of the financial assets the fed is supporting are also the biggest winners. Since we are accomplishing all this by printing money, those that don't win lose even more because their dollars are worth less. The long-term result on the current course will be even greater wealth disparity between the rich and the poor.

You might have noticed many people complaining about this wealth disparity during the recent economic recovery in which the fed has added almost 4 trillion dollars to their balance sheet (again see the fed's chart).

These wealth gaps historically lead to populism, which gets us our current president.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#94

From the time Congress passed the $6.2T Bill that gave $4T to the FED to prop up the stock market, $700B in PPP loans; and and estimated $300B to the people ($1,200) stimulus checks, it should have put things in perspective. Ideally the stock market wouldn't have been propped up and the PPP loan program would have been more legitimate to save real small businesses (just wait until all the fraud comes out of this thin…

> and estimated $300B to the people ($1,200) stimulus checks It’s not correct to say that people only received $1200. Everyone qualified for that stimulus (depending on income thresholds, it was phased out for higher incomes), regardless of job loss. Unemployed people receive an additional $600/week from the late-March COVID relief bill through July 31. There are additional measures to extend the duration of regular…

Fine if you want to add the amount for subsidizing the Unemployment Insurance from the CARES Act the numbers again:

$4T to the FED to prop up the stock market

$700B in forgivable loans to small businesses (PPP program)

$300B in taxpayer stimulus checks

$260B in Unemployment Insurance subsidies

>suggesting that we could all have received $18K is disingenuous. Proper response should be targeted where needed

It is not disingenuous at all to say taxpayers should have received the lions share of these bailouts (bailouts being paid for by taxpayers), or at minimum its not disingenuous to say taxpayers (not law makers beholden to corporate interests) should have dictated where the bailout funds go...I would say it is disingenuous to claim taxpayers would have sent 8x the amount they received to the FED to prop up an overvalued stock market that was already at record highs.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#95
post #3

If there was an actual shortage of workers, wages would be rising for the essential workers.

The problem is the essential workers don't actually have any leverage, because quitting your job doesn't let you file for unemployment (or makes it harder/reduced benefits). So the essential workers can only really demand a raise for fairness, they can't say "pay me more than $600/week or I'll quit and get that from the government".

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#96

[flagged]

whatever value your argument may have, it's not relevant to Covid.

Stay at home...OK, but I need to eat, pay rent etc etc. Here's some money from our tax pool to survive this (hopefully) once in a century thing. Not 100% efficient and some benefited more than others but that's a small price to pay for sending cash ASAP to people. That kept the economy from TOTAL collapse and people from starving. That's why we have a government

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#97
post #45

[flagged]

Could you elaborate on how keeping people from starving is communism, or any other ideology?

It entirely depends on the manner in which it comes about. Forced (ultimately via violence) is not really free (liberty) and volitional compassion (charity) is generally ethical.

However, it gets a bit blurry when you're in a democratic society and you voted for politicians who implement taxes.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#98
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on how keeping people from starving is communism, or any other ideology?

How are they starving when they’re making more sitting home than they made going to work? Are you implying they were starving before? Are there any starving people in the USA?

If you want statistics on who’s starving in the US look up the counts for free and reduced lunch at schools in the area. They’re typically means tested and free lunch in particular is only granted to kids who otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford the fifty cents a day for reduced price lunch. The USDA sets Income Eligibility Guidelines at the national level for these programs.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because bailouts (usually) make the government money in the long run. They're in the form of low-interest loans, they aren't just handing out money to corporations.

>They're in the form of low-interest loans, they aren't just handing out money to corporations. This is false as related to the PPP loans ($700B program, to put that in perspective during the 2008 financial crisis law makers passed an $800B stimulus to prevent total financial collapse). Its argued the banks paid that 2008 money back with interest (I won't touch that claim), but the PPP loans ($700B) are intended to b…

>>> Our Quantitative easing and corporate bailouts

>> Because bailouts (usually) make the government money in the long run. They're in the form of low-interest loans, they aren't just handing out money to corporations.

> This is false as related to the PPP loans

GP was comparing unemployment to QE and "corporate bailouts". Forgiveness of PPP loans is contingent on keeping staff on payroll and salary levels constant. So it's very much targeted at helping main street. In this sense, the intended use of PPP loans was closer to augmenting unemployment than a corporate bailout.

To the extent that PPP loans have actually gone to small businesses, my impression is that that's mostly worked out -- it's basically unemployment without the lack of employment. To the extent that they haven't, the federal government should find a way to retroactively claw back abuse and/or exclude abusers from future rounds of assistance.

BTW, worth noting that the PPP loans aren't really a handout if they're not paid back; their interest rate of 1%. Rates of return on fixed income are super low right now.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#100
post #25

From the time Congress passed the $6.2T Bill that gave $4T to the FED to prop up the stock market, $700B in PPP loans; and and estimated $300B to the people ($1,200) stimulus checks, it should have put things in perspective. Ideally the stock market wouldn't have been propped up and the PPP loan program would have been more legitimate to save real small businesses (just wait until all the fraud comes out of this thin…

> If all that money instead went to the people/taxpayers they would all have received an $18,000 stimulus check instead of $1,200, I think this would have been the best move possible. Everyone I know would choose their entire retirement fund over a one time check of $18,000 . I understand your sentiment, and it does feel like we got less that we deserve, but stimulating the stock market was absolutely the right move.…

>Everyone I know would choose their entire retirement fund over a one time check of $18,000

We live in a bubble. There are VAST SWATHES (millions and millions) of people whose ENTIRE NET WORTHS are less than $18,000.

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