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NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

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Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#91

Post by LudwigNagasena »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #83
Thorentis wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you need to sacrifice your prime years in order to succeed, doesn't mean the system isn't meritorious. What isn't meritorious about needing to work hard even if you're talented? Nobody gets a free ride. If you mean that gifted people should have their livelihood subsidised by the state, then sure, I'm open to exploring merit based scholarships, and society investing more in the sciences and so on. But no…

The problem is that, in a world where white folks have access to a better social safety net, on average they can afford to sacrifice their 20s and 30s in this pursuit, where others might not have that luxury. Anyway, I won't waste my time further debating what's obvious gaslighting.

This is simply not true. Most people can’t afford education but they still take loans and pursue it, even if they have no aptitude for science.

It is indeed gaslighting to talk about “safety nets” when there is a student loan crisis in the country.

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#92

Post by kortilla »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #83
Thorentis wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you need to sacrifice your prime years in order to succeed, doesn't mean the system isn't meritorious. What isn't meritorious about needing to work hard even if you're talented? Nobody gets a free ride. If you mean that gifted people should have their livelihood subsidised by the state, then sure, I'm open to exploring merit based scholarships, and society investing more in the sciences and so on. But no…

The problem is that, in a world where white folks have access to a better social safety net, on average they can afford to sacrifice their 20s and 30s in this pursuit, where others might not have that luxury. Anyway, I won't waste my time further debating what's obvious gaslighting.

> Anyway, I won't waste my time further debating what's obvious gaslighting.

Calling someone’s argument “obvious gaslighting” is just an appeal to incredulity.

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#93

Post by mleonhard »

This is good because it encourages African-Americans, other minority people, and women to pursue engineering. There are so many people who would be great engineers but aren't. They are missing out on good careers. And society is missing out on good engineers.

Renaming buildings is an easy way to help improve things.

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#94

Post by newacct583 »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #87
newacct583 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this person’s contribution was not the reason for the naming but the fact that black people were supressed As opposed to all those other buildings, all of which were uniformly and fairly named after people with unimpeachible accomplishments in a purely meritocratic system, you mean? I mean, come on. People name junk after stupid things All. The. Time. And no one cares. Seriously, go to your local campus or governme…

> As opposed to all those other buildings, all of which were uniformly and fairly named after people with unimpeachible accomplishments in a purely meritocratic system, you mean? As opposed to an ideal people strive for. Of course no one will ever be happy with every name. Every person has their own opinion. It doesn’t mean there is no place for public discourse around it. > I mean, come on. People name junk after st…

> Evidently people care a lot about such stuff.

They don't, though. When was the last HN thread about a building named after someone undeserving? Or really any discussion about a routine honorific misapplied? Anything remotely similar?

Only now, in a thread about a building named after a black woman, do "people" start to "care a lot about such stuff".

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#95

Post by SenHeng »

cyberlurker wrote: post #40
tartoran wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a symbolic gesture relax. While it irks you it might inspire a young black kid to become an astronomer or phisicist or astronaut. As a white there are plenty of inspiring people. Some of them have been power hungry and ruthless and nobody knows how many people they trampled on. Some of those are white symbols. Why not let balcks have their own?

As a white person who has experienced imposter syndrome at times in the tech world, I think I would have had a harder time overcoming it if I looked around and never saw another white person. Obviously that is not the case. I suspect giving young black girls someone to look up to is more powerful than people realize. If naming a building helps with that, why not do it? Also, if we are really going to suddenly be meri…

Reminds me of what Neil deGrasse Tyson said about being a visible black authority figure of science and knowledge.

> In an undated interview at Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Tyson talked about being black and one of the most visible and well-known scientists in the world. He told a story about being interviewed about a plasma burst from the sun on a local Fox affiliate in 1989. "I'd never before in my life seen an interview with a black person on television for expertise that had nothing to do with being black. And at that point, I realized that one of the last stereotypes that prevailed among people who carry stereotypes is that, sort of, black people are somehow dumb. I wondered, maybe ... that's a way to undermine this sort of, this stereotype that prevailed about who's smart and who's dumb. I said to myself, 'I just have to be visible, or others like me, in that situation.' That would have a greater force on society than anything else I could imagine."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#Race_and_s...

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#96

Post by jjeaff »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #91
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that, in a world where white folks have access to a better social safety net, on average they can afford to sacrifice their 20s and 30s in this pursuit, where others might not have that luxury. Anyway, I won't waste my time further debating what's obvious gaslighting.

This is simply not true. Most people can’t afford education but they still take loans and pursue it, even if they have no aptitude for science. It is indeed gaslighting to talk about “safety nets” when there is a student loan crisis in the country.

I believe they are referring to the safety net provided by relative white wealth. Median net worth for white families in America is 10x that of black families.

Which means they are much more likely to be able to get support from home or even a home to move back to if things get tough.

It's a lot easier to take the economic risk of a post-grad or post-doc program when you know there is a family with means to fall back on.

Excessive student loans are not a serious issue relative to what many in poverty face. If you don't make enough money to pay your student loans, then you can defer them indefinitely. Or just not pay them. It might keep you from getting rich. But it's not going to keep you from eating.

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#97

Post by jjeaff »

Thorentis wrote: post #32
tartoran wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who come to surface are either genial or narcisistic prize seekers. A lot of white people worth mentioning were forgotten because others trampled on them. Don’t be so sure it’s so meritocratic, thats just a myth

Most Nobel prize winners to date have been white. Would you say the majority of them sought out the prize? I've read about many of them, and most seem to have just had a great discovery that was awarded on merit. There will always be outliers that do things for the awards, but it's not a generialisation I've seen in the sciences. Should we start giving more Nobel prizes to black people just because of the color of th…

Just how do you think the Nobel committee decides which work to look at?

I don't think they need to be meeting racial quotas for prizes, but my guess is that there is a lot of work to be done in the system that promotes and nominates candidates and those systems in place that decide who and what gets published.

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#98

Post by throwaway829 »

mleonhard wrote: post #93

This is good because it encourages African-Americans, other minority people, and women to pursue engineering. There are so many people who would be great engineers but aren't. They are missing out on good careers. And society is missing out on good engineers. Renaming buildings is an easy way to help improve things.

Asians do very well in America and they didn't need buildings named after them. Why do you think black people need buildings renamed before they start learning calculus, physics, etc?

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#99

Post by jjeaff »

systemvoltage wrote: post #86
glosses wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this go both ways? Is it really more meritocratic to choose someone who made a greater contribution if they were given significantly better opportunities throughout their life to achieve it? Can you even judge merit if not everyone is given an equal start?

The problem your opposition sees is that: It is a gross generalization and on an individual basis there is no way to check or know if that ______ person had equal opportunities or they didn’t. The problem with generalized appropriations but localized relief is that unfairness is vividly unbearable to those who are impacted. Imagine if race ______ gets 20 more points in an exam than the rest because they just happen t…

Now imagine that your great grandparents were enslaved. Then your grandparents and parents suffered through Jim Crow. Then you go through life being slighted and made to feel like an other and anytime you achieve something, some idiot claims it was because of racial quotas and you know some others think it to themselves.

Then you are told that you didn't get the job because now (as of the day the civil rights act passed or the day Obama was elected) we no longer have racial bias in our hiring practices and we are now officially a meritocracy.

So no, I don't see a problem with a system that might slightly favor a minority because I doubt that on the whole they are actually getting any sort of advantage anyway.

97% feels oppressive when you are used to 100%.

Re: NASA names headquarters after first Black female engineer Mary W. Jackson

#100

Post by jjeaff »

cheschire wrote: post #81
justin66 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only Armstrong had accomplished something that made up for overshooting the runway and scraping the paint on the bottom of an experimental aircraft, perhaps then he'd be worthy of having a building at Edwards named after him. I cannot imagine what sort of act might erase the stain of that kind of universal infamy.

I mean, a dog AND a couple monkeys made it up to space right? How hard can it be? And the landing part is just falling with style.

Not sure if you are aware, but Armstrong is not famous because he just "went to space".
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