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California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

reuters.com

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Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#91

Post by lukifer »

ogre_codes wrote: post #32
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

Private prisons have a financial incentive to detain inmates for as long as possible. The prison has some input into when a detainee is released (good behavior, etc) and private prisons have been observed abusing this power. Private prisons also have incentives to find ways to cut costs and often do so in ways which harm detainees. Private prisons also have incentive to lobby for longer mandatory prison terms regardl…

I'm in 100% agreement on the perverse incentives of private prisons; however it's worth noting that similar incentives exist for prison guard unions, even for publicly managed prisons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_...

Abolishing private prisons is a good start, but we need much more drastic reform to the prison-industrial complex and failed "tough on crime" policies, particular in the realms of drug policy, community investment, and mental health.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#92

Post by winstonewert »

gizmo686 wrote: post #29
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

Am I missing something here? How can sterilizations save money when prisons are already gender segragated? Unless they are saying that it is inpractical to have male prison guards/staff not have sex with the inmates.

Perhaps the theory is that the children born to criminals will likely be criminals as well, thus by preventing those children from being born there will be long-term cost savings?

On the other hand, I have a hard time seeing someone being both that diabolical and long-term in mindset.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#93

Post by dahfizz »

mason55 wrote: post #87
dahfizz wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could also make sense is paying the prison a lump sum for the convict instead of a per diem. This changes the incentive structure from keeping people locked up as long as possible to rehabilitating and releasing them as fast as possible.

I don't see where the incentive to rehabilitate is? They're just incentivized to release them ASAP so they spend as little as possible.

Aren't parole boards and the justice system in general involved in the process of releasing people from prison? Its the State that ultimately decides when a prisoner is allowed out.

> They're just incentivized to release them ASAP

And the only way to do that is to show the parole board that a person is worth paroling, e.g. by rehabilitating them.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#94

Post by dahfizz »

ogre_codes wrote: post #78
dahfizz wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could also make sense is paying the prison a lump sum for the convict instead of a per diem. This changes the incentive structure from keeping people locked up as long as possible to rehabilitating and releasing them as fast as possible.

> This changes the incentive structure from keeping people locked up as long as possible to rehabilitating and releasing them as fast as possible. So long as private prisons have a say in when a prisoner is released there is conflict of interest. If a private prison gets paid $100k for a prisoner, they are going to ensure they are released at the very soonest opportunity instead of detaining them as long as possible.…

> So long as private prisons have a say in when a prisoner is released there is conflict of interest.

I agree. This would work best if the prison had no influence on the parole board's decision. That way, the only way to get people out of prison faster is to actually rehabilitate them and encourage good behavior.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#95

Post by xtremereply »

flatline wrote: post #53
thebean11 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, private prisons are a moral hazard by nature. Pointing out a separate failure by state prisons is a straw man I think.

The operator of the first private prison in the US came to speak at a class of mine back in the 90s. They provided a minimum-security facility in an old hotel in Denver. The owner was very sincere, they honestly believed that they could provide a better experience for the prisoners, and they did. The focus was actually on rehabilitation, they were able to relax a lot of the rules for good prisoners that state and fed…

That’s a warm and fuzzy anecdote.

You’re right it’s not private prisons per se.

It’s the private ownership model that we’ve seen abused again and again.

This is one of those situations where the warm fuzzy anecdote is overpowered by evidence that scaled the model is rife for abuse.

At scale, yeah a dozen voting fraud stories here, and there. But mathematically we can show that it’s largely been working . Whether the candidates we get are “ours”, gerrymandering, and gaming the electoral college are aside from the fact the math on Election Day has largely worked out as one would hope.

The same is not true given a macro view of private prisons. Profits are going up, so is over crowding, incarceration rates, the result is racially and financially biased, we get more uptight with offenses to fill beds (Google it, it’s not rocket science, there’s history of bias), and it feeds a cottage industry of work that’s essentially reiterating daily to workers at these places we should just treat each other like animals. Go home, have your light beer, and watch news, that’s a good boy. Come back tomorrow.

Note too how “profit is up” “inequality is up” are more of those types of math results. They say something in numbers entirely without considering how that acts as a forcing function on the populace. We’ll just paper over it with rhetoric about protecting individuality and how yours matters most, and forget about how our culture literally is profiting from taking it away from others that need not be in that position

Some mathematicians have suggested upward of 25% of inmates may be innocent because of inequities in the justice system

Private prisons are a big bright mathy spot that shows clearly those inequities.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#96

Post by thephyber »

ogre_codes wrote: post #32
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

Private prisons have a financial incentive to detain inmates for as long as possible. The prison has some input into when a detainee is released (good behavior, etc) and private prisons have been observed abusing this power. Private prisons also have incentives to find ways to cut costs and often do so in ways which harm detainees. Private prisons also have incentive to lobby for longer mandatory prison terms regardl…

Additionally, they usually contract with the government for a minimum occupancy, where the government pays the cost if they can't fill up enough beds.

Current contractual incentives on both sides of the prison company / government relationship are too perverse.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#97

Post by specialist »

Actual bill:

AB-32 Detention facilities: private, for-profit administration services.(2019-2020)

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml...

Rant: Why are the medias constitutionally incapable of linking to the actual bill? Third millennium. It's all online. Cite and link your sources. Unbelievable.

Edit: Somehow The Guardian is capable of using links. Maybe it's a British thing. Here's their version of the same story. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/12/california-p...

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#99

Post by TimTheTinker »

flatline wrote: post #53
thebean11 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, private prisons are a moral hazard by nature. Pointing out a separate failure by state prisons is a straw man I think.

The operator of the first private prison in the US came to speak at a class of mine back in the 90s. They provided a minimum-security facility in an old hotel in Denver. The owner was very sincere, they honestly believed that they could provide a better experience for the prisoners, and they did. The focus was actually on rehabilitation, they were able to relax a lot of the rules for good prisoners that state and fed…

Private prisons are a major problem because of the authority that is delegated.

In the US, the government derives its authority to govern (and by extension, the justice system derives its authority to imprison and punish criminals) only by the collective consent of the people.

It's the same reason private police and private courts are a big moral problem - they are in a position of authority over people that only government to whom the people have consented should be.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#100

Post by dang »

enlyth wrote: post #54
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emailing them at hn@ycombinator.com is a better way to get this done, as they see it faster and it avoids meta-conversations like this one lowering the signal-to-noise ratio of the comments.

But this way people know that this has already been requested and don't need to keep on spamming emails

That's a minor problem. In that case we just say thank you to more than one person.

The real problem is not knowing about the issue in the first place, so it's definitely best to email. Even if you see me replying in the thread, such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23501998, that's usually because someone called our attention to it by email.

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