Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US • Hacker News Board

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#91

Post by verdverm » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 12:35 AM UTC

testbot123 wrote: post #82

komali2 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me?

I would not engage with the user "verdverm". They are arguing in bad faith, attempting to put anyone who disagrees with them on the defensive, and attempting to pivot the conversation when they're unable to do so. Below, I had a similar debate with this person. They attempted to get me on the defensive by turning the conversation to the 2014 murder of police officers in New York, and continually bringing it up as a w…

I only have weakly held opinions and many questions to understand better.

I believe you are the one to avoid conversing with, to go so far as to make this comment I am replying to.

Is the view that much better that from your moral pedestal?

The point is to get you to think with a more open mind. Sometimes that takes ruffling a few feathers. I mean you no ill will. It is quite the opposite, if you learn to love without prejudice. This is a very difficult thing that few ever master. I am most definitely not among those who have.

You will feel differently and better in time though. How long depends on your reaction, because that is all we can do, react. I cannot make you angry, only you can.

This is not victim blaming, this is straight from the Dali Llama's mouth. I experience emotions, and later visit them without attachment and letting them control my condition again. I am a much happier person when I do this well, regardless of the original emotion, and equal treatment for both good and bad emotions. Getting overly enthusiastic is as bad as depression.

Again, the only person you can ever hope to control is yourself.

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#92

Post by verdverm » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 12:44 AM UTC

testbot123 wrote: post #82

komali2 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me?

I would not engage with the user "verdverm". They are arguing in bad faith, attempting to put anyone who disagrees with them on the defensive, and attempting to pivot the conversation when they're unable to do so. Below, I had a similar debate with this person. They attempted to get me on the defensive by turning the conversation to the 2014 murder of police officers in New York, and continually bringing it up as a w…

Testbot, you are also relatively new to this community. It is very different and the best experiment into a social comment platform that actually works and brings greater knowledge and understanding to it's members, by it's members.

HN is helpful, contemplative, and the best place I know to have civil discussions about the taboo. ( http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html )

PG's essays are highly recommended and his thoughts have to some extent helped define this community.

I hope that you continue to return, engage, and grow with us.

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#93

Post by Balgair » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 12:46 AM UTC

eezurr wrote: post #75

cellularmitosis wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know man, it really doesn't have to be this way. Look at how people respond when authority figures act like human beings: https://twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1267107339833925634 Imagine if the police showed up and started handing out water bottles, rather than assaulting unarmed (but angry) citizens. I think you'd see a different response. Imagine if the police were trained to remain passive even when struc…

It appears that officer is not talking to a mob, but to dozens of calm people. Different situation. If people are already screaming and shouting, or worse, breaking things, and there are hundreds of them, that wont work. >Imagine if the police were trained to remain passive even when struck. Tell me how much it would cost to train a police force to that level of self control, and to be able identify, in a split secon…

It's interesting to compare the present issues with policing with those of about a month ago:

https://twitter.com/TyreeBP/status/1256813343764918272

Granted, the number of people is ~100x different. Still, examples like the tweet above illustrate that the needed 'self control' has existed within about a pay-period or two.

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#94

Post by Balgair » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 12:49 AM UTC

testbot123 wrote: post #89

mixmastamyk wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a good way to get looters to disperse without further violence. What am I missing?

> “Tear gas is considered a riot control agent because the effects dissipate a short time after exposure,’’ said Kelsey Davenport, director for nonproliferation policy at the Arms Control Association. “But even though the effects of tear gas wear off, its symptoms are harsh and terrifying, including severe eye irritations and difficulty breathing. > “The United States may justify firing tear gas [...] as legal, but t…

The acoup blog has an amazingly detailed post on chemical weapons and the reasons behind their disuse today:

https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

TLDR: They hit you just as hard as they hit the enemy and they are wildly unpredictable.

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#95

Post by Balgair » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 12:54 AM UTC

ttfkam wrote: post #28

_xerces_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did this come about, is it the consequence of an armed society, or something else unique to Americans?

Racism is a hell of a drug. It's the US's original sin. One it has never truly confronted in any lasting manner.

> One it has never truly confronted in any lasting manner.

I mean, the US has come a long way from chattel slavery, Jim Crow laws, Chinese exclusion acts, Irish exclusion, Italian exclusion, Catholics, etc. It did recently have a black president. Yes it has a very long way to go, but there has been a lot of progress in it's history.

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#96

Post by komali2 » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

verdverm wrote: post #91

testbot123 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not engage with the user "verdverm". They are arguing in bad faith, attempting to put anyone who disagrees with them on the defensive, and attempting to pivot the conversation when they're unable to do so. Below, I had a similar debate with this person. They attempted to get me on the defensive by turning the conversation to the 2014 murder of police officers in New York, and continually bringing it up as a w…

I only have weakly held opinions and many questions to understand better. I believe you are the one to avoid conversing with, to go so far as to make this comment I am replying to. Is the view that much better that from your moral pedestal? The point is to get you to think with a more open mind. Sometimes that takes ruffling a few feathers. I mean you no ill will. It is quite the opposite, if you learn to love withou…

> I cannot make you angry, only you can.

Haha, victim blaming at its finest. You remind me of the classic LessWrong post about the irrationality of thinking emotions are irrational.

https://www.lesswrong.com/s/5g5TkQTe9rmPS5vvM/p/RcZCwxFiZzE6...

This hailing of Spock as the Ultimate Scientist, the Ultimate Humanitarian - he didn't let emotions get in the way of rationality! He was a pure, thinking... uh.. well Machine, but not in the bad way!

You can make people angry, and that doesn't make them irrational, and it doesn't make you right. Debate isn't as simple as making the other side feel feelings - all you're doing is hiding your own lack of self reflection behind a psuedo-zen shield. "Oh don't mind me, simple and emotional HN posters, I am merely here to tickle your little ape brains, and challenge you to Be Better!" Thinking yourself Spock on the enterprise over our planet.

Come down to Earth with the rest of us. Acknowledge that emotions are rational, and acknowledge the feelings you aren't letting yourself feel are rational too.

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#97

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

onemoresoop wrote: post #88

verdverm wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see you've edited your comment to add colors where I had not. You did claim to be white at the time, is that still the case? I only brought up that I was because you had, but have since removed that statement. Which version (white or not) supports your narrative better? A little disingenuous don't ya think? I spoke of the broad variety of people involved in a sibling comment, did you consider my comments at large t…

Im white, of Eastern European origin and a US immigrant. Fortunately not very bigoted due to my opennnes to experiences which opened my eyes. I did not add color to my edit but probably corrected some error, i type on my phone and also miss words.

[deleted]

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#98

Post by komali2 » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 1:04 AM UTC

verdverm wrote: post #90

komali2 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, a bad faith, fallacious attempt to change the subject, interesting. What you doing on this website? When was the last time you engaged in self reflection? When was the last time you admitted you were wrong?

> People are inherently good. This is on your website under the values section. Do you still believe it? Are you singling out a group and saying they are different? --- re: I admit fault and incorrectness all of the time. It's part of being open minded. Look at other comments. --- Love takes patience

Damn you really dove in. I respect that. Maybe I was being hard on you, but I still don't really understand or trust your motives here.

I do still believe that, yes. The institution of police is filled with inherently good people, who somehow get corrupted - probably by power-aggregators desperate to maintain power.

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#99

Post by testbot123 » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 1:38 AM UTC

verdverm wrote: post #92

testbot123 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not engage with the user "verdverm". They are arguing in bad faith, attempting to put anyone who disagrees with them on the defensive, and attempting to pivot the conversation when they're unable to do so. Below, I had a similar debate with this person. They attempted to get me on the defensive by turning the conversation to the 2014 murder of police officers in New York, and continually bringing it up as a w…

Testbot, you are also relatively new to this community. It is very different and the best experiment into a social comment platform that actually works and brings greater knowledge and understanding to it's members, by it's members. HN is helpful, contemplative, and the best place I know to have civil discussions about the taboo. ( http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html ) PG's essays are highly recommended and his though…

Thanks, but I’ve been here a lot longer than my account age and I know how things work. Unfortunately, your behavior shows you to be a bad faith actor, and unfortunately for you a lot of the users on HN can recognize the gaslighting you’re attempting right now. Your patronizing post here really clinches it, as you yet again attempt to put me on the defensive and claim that your arguments are just honest debate on “taboo” subjects.

You are not engaging in earnest debate. You are attempting to deflect and discredit, as in this post. I’m not new to this place or these tactics.

Re: Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

#100

Post by splintercell » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 1:46 AM UTC

dmode wrote: post #84

splintercell wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a very armed police because we have a very armed populace, and we have a very armed populace because security is your own responsibility, at least in the rural areas (also notice the urban/rural divide, armed populace is in the rural area, and the crazy police stories are from the urban area). One of the main ways America is so different than Europeans because of its political system. Here we empower rural ar…

This is an amazing response. Thank you. I might also add that income equality in America is at peak, and as COVID laid bare America has no clothes, were most people are 1 Paycheck away from bankruptcy, while billionaires are still winning from the stop market. You need a heavily militarized police force to maintain peace in such an unqeual environment

> You need a heavily militarized police force to maintain peace in such an unqeual environment

There are many reasons why this argument does not hold water. In every economic system inequality feels terrible. People don't really have an absolute scale of inequality where they get upset if it crosses a certain threshold. It's all a matter of how much do they believe they can achieve the top spot.

A starving artist doesn't get super upset at wealth and the lavish parties of a successful artist because he truly believes that one day he'll get there. Tomorrow Jay-Z could become world's first trillionaire but a struggling hip-hop star would still not support high taxation on his assets.

The resentment starts when he believes that achieving that high status is not possible (which is not true for America) OR when he loses the existing status (i.e status loss).

The status loss theory explains things like Communist revolutions, rise of Christianity in the decline of Roman Empire far more than income inequality.

In fact in the United States, people at the low end of income almost never support the income inequality theory, it's almost always done by high social status non-religious left-liberals. For the people at the low end of income curve (but not like starving actors/artist/authors) believe that in the US, people have a shot at becoming rich, but because of loss of economic opportunity due to globalization, immigration etc has resulted in creation of this situation.