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Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

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Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#91

Post by taneq »

copperx wrote: post #50
ivanhoe wrote: post #47

Those books shouldn't be judged by today's norms. They were not written for the children (nor parents... especially not parents) of today, but for children back then who lived in a completely different world. For instance, in the version of Cinderella by Charles Perrault - the version that we all know - one of the evil stepsisters was advised by her mother to cut off her toes in order to fit the slipper. She almost f…

Aren't we and our children exposed to much more violence, blood, and plain evilness in media nowadays? I don't understand how people in those times would be less sensitive to such themes.

I think this is an example of the "everything getting worse" fallacy. We're far more sheltered and lead far less awful lives these days. There's fictional violence available in movies if we choose to watch it but compared to today, life was far more nasty, brutal and short.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#92

Post by barry-cotter »

goto11 wrote: post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

> Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep.

Do you have any evidence for this? Nothing I’ve ever read in anthropology supports it. When most children die before their fifth birthday, the average family lives in one room and a family is rich if they have two beds, a table and six good chairs people think very differently than the fabulously wealthy Victorians. And they were pretty much ok with children working in factories or as chimney sweeps.

Life used to be nasty, brutish and short. Attitudes were substantially less delicate as a result.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#93

Post by barry-cotter »

riazrizvi wrote: post #73
copperx wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't we and our children exposed to much more violence, blood, and plain evilness in media nowadays? I don't understand how people in those times would be less sensitive to such themes.

In older societies, people see a lot more violence/blood toward animals. In old-fashioned societies, when you need a chicken, the butcher grabs a live one, wrestles it's wriggling body, wrings its neck, and skins it in front of you. You grab the meat and it's still warm. Butchers killing larger livestock is likely a show you can see near the market, you may even have participated in some such act yourself because of…

> In older societies, people see a lot more violence/blood toward animals.

Older societies? Every farming family in Western Europe would have been familiar with how to slaughter and process their own animals until the 60s at the earliest. There are very few people more than three generations removed from agriculture, and most of those would have seen animals slaughtered up until the rise of industrial cold chains in the early 1900s.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#94

Post by watwut »

barry-cotter wrote: post #92
goto11 wrote: post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

> Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. Do you have any evidence for this? Nothing I’ve ever read in anthropology supports it. When most children die before their fifth birthday, the average family lives in one room and a family is rich if they have two beds, a table and six good chairs people think very differently…

1.) One bit of context is that German propaganda during WWI did not allowed death at all in children books. This is something I have from book about occupied territory.

2.) The other is that "folk" likely did not told stories to kids every evening the way we do. This I gather as unprobable after reading book about childhood in Germany before wars. The kids did not get as much individual attention and general attention.

Demographic that was ok with kids working in factories had both parents working 12 hours a day with no weekend. These had 5 years old whole day alone on the streets or "responsible" for gooses with no adult present. There was no one to gently tuck them to bed and tell them story so that they learn "morals" or what. These were overworked adults desperately needing a bit of rest for themselves.

Your kids are not getting bedtime stories at all in that situation.

3.) My observation from kids: We push stories and reading on kids a lot and very soon. Sooner then they actually like it. Small kids like shorter super simple stories. The original form is not for kids not just because it is dark, but also because it is unnecessary long and slow moving for such kid.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#95

Post by ertian »

I don't really agree with the author at all. His examples all seem like meaningful stories.

The lion in the zoo? He lives off other animals, but when he stops to get to know one he becomes so attached he can't live without it. Could be a simple message about animal cruelty (IIRC, Tolstoy was vegetarian?). Could be a parable about aristocrats & peasants, or capitalists and workers.

Escape of the Dancing Bear? The bear was recaptured because he fell into old habits. Be careful not to do the same.

Death of the Cherry Tree? Could just be a message that all things are living, stop and consider the damage you're causing. The blasé attitude of the woodcutter is shocking: people can get used to anything. Possibly an analogy for war or other cruelty which we casually accept.

The King and the Shirt: money doesn't buy happiness. It's not sad, the poor man is legitimately happy. Possessions and worldly ties can bring unhappiness. And it's ironic and thought-provoking, for kids.

The Old Poplar: obvious lessons about family ties. Don't send grandpa to a home. And a neat lesson on systems: the obvious, common sense approach backfired because things were more complex and interdependent than they looked at first sight.

The Little Bird: some things are meant to be wild. Some things, when done, can't be undone.

I honestly kinda like these stories. Not sure I'd read them to my 4-year-old, though.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#96

Post by ertian »

downerending wrote: post #5

I'm still vaguely haunted by Never Tease a Weasel . Seen through children's eyes, probably a lot of books targeting them are rather creepy.

But it's never what you'd expect. The stuff that bothers parents skips right past the kids a lot of the time, but strange little things will freak a kid right out. My son refuses to read some books (going so far as to hide one of them), but I have no idea why; at the same time there are stories I find downright creepy that he'll request over and over.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#97

Post by wwwwewwww »

I'm not sure why people compare these stories to folktales. These are not folktales, they are short stories Tolstoy wrote for his school for peasant children, where he also taught.

They are not meant to be read at bedtimeto small children, but thoughtful reading material for kids of all ages who are learning to read. The kids who are old enough to read the stories would be old enough to appreciate the (often very sad) stories.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#98

Post by goto11 »

romwell wrote: post #77
goto11 wrote: post #48

Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children. Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore t…

>Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. How does this apply? What is this in response to? Tolstoy's stories weren't based on folk tales, and were specifically meant for children. Yet they are, at times, pretty grim, and often lack a punchline or a clear point, other than "such is life". Which might have been the point anyway.

I wrote in the response to the article and many comments here which assumes that folktales were intended for kids. I'm not asserting anything about Tolstoys stories which I don't know (and I'm not sure the article gives a fair representation of them).

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#99

Post by barry-cotter »

watwut wrote: post #94
barry-cotter wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. Do you have any evidence for this? Nothing I’ve ever read in anthropology supports it. When most children die before their fifth birthday, the average family lives in one room and a family is rich if they have two beds, a table and six good chairs people think very differently…

1.) One bit of context is that German propaganda during WWI did not allowed death at all in children books. This is something I have from book about occupied territory. 2.) The other is that "folk" likely did not told stories to kids every evening the way we do. This I gather as unprobable after reading book about childhood in Germany before wars. The kids did not get as much individual attention and general attentio…

Your “we” is likely unrepresentative even now. Reading or telling stories to children every night is not a universal pastime. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s below 50% though it’s quite common.

Children got less attention because there were more of them and people were busy but they weren’t feral. When it’s dark and cold outside they were mostly inside. There’s always work but if you spend a lot of time in cramped quarters with no tv, radio or books people’s people want entertainment apart from gossip. That means music, song or story telling. You’re not going to get a five year old to sit still for half an hour to listen to a recitation of a book of the Iliad or Odyssey but ten minutes is an unremarkable attention span.

Total agreement on reading. Be like Finland, leave it til primary school, which starts at 7 years old.

Re: Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

#100

Post by watwut »

barry-cotter wrote: post #99
watwut wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.) One bit of context is that German propaganda during WWI did not allowed death at all in children books. This is something I have from book about occupied territory. 2.) The other is that "folk" likely did not told stories to kids every evening the way we do. This I gather as unprobable after reading book about childhood in Germany before wars. The kids did not get as much individual attention and general attentio…

Your “we” is likely unrepresentative even now. Reading or telling stories to children every night is not a universal pastime. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s below 50% though it’s quite common. Children got less attention because there were more of them and people were busy but they weren’t feral. When it’s dark and cold outside they were mostly inside. There’s always work but if you spend a lot of time in cramped qu…

> Your “we” is likely unrepresentative even now. Reading or telling stories to children every night is not a universal pastime.

I meant we as a society. Not everyone does it, but it is general recommendation. It was not even recommendation back then. The point is, we as society are collectively doing it a lot more. We as a society also push parents to do it a lot more. In 19 century, you would not had people claiming that someone must read to babies every night - although you do see people and even educators pushing this one.

> Children got less attention because there were more of them and people were busy but they weren’t feral

The origin of kindergarten are German cities with poor kids in city running around whole day. Middle class kids lives were highly controlled, including a lot of control over their entertainment, hobbies and so on. But poor families could not afford any of that.

In rural villages, even my grandmother remembered being responsible for gooses along other kids while adults worked fields (they were comparatively rich family with rather larger farm). It was the normal way of raising kids even in 20 century.

> People want entertainment apart from gossip. That means music, song or story telling

Yes, but these are songs and story telling for adults. The kids can listen, but the original claim is that these stories were aimed at adult audience. Which is true. The fun things for children and for adults are much different. And the original stories when I read them while ago tended to be much longer then what I read to small kids. As kids grow they start to have preference for older and 10 years old will like long version. But 4-5 years old less likely.

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