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Nicomachean Ethics

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Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#91
post #8

This is one of the books that, until yo do read it, you think (because that is the “folklore wisdom”) will be a huge bore. Then it blows your mind, and you start to understand freedom.

Aristotle is difficult to read, for a number of reasons. The main one in my opinion is that it is so dense of inestimable content that I am overwhelmed at every paragraph.

Yes, very hard because it is like my lecture notes: good for an educated person, bad for a student.

However, I always make the decision: better getting the gist of it and if, possible, reread later on than stopping too much the first time.

Of course, it goes with personalities, I know.

I have read the Ethics. Tried the metaphysics and simply could not, though.

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#92

As an aside, I strongly recommend reading Thucydides. Once you know the story of the Peloponnesian War, everything that Socrates and Aristotle talked about will have a much deeper meaning.

Yes! Socrates and Aristotle both sound very anti-democratic. Thucydides explains why.

Reading Russel’s post WWII take on The Republic in A History of Western Philosophy is as close to taking a great class in college as I got after I was no longer in that setting. So many of those eye opening moments that make you reevaluate what you felt like you understand.

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#93

It’s been a very long time since i read this. The two things that really stuck with me (personal opinion): 1. Utility There are three levels of utility. Things whose use is only in service of something else are least valued. Things whose use is direct and not in service of something else are of highest value. Things whose use is of both something else and it’s own direct utility are of medium value. As an example a c…

I've studied philosophy a great deal, and I'm terribly confused about your takeaways, because neither have anything to do with Aristotle as far as I know.

Aristotle was the founder of what is now termed "virtue ethics", which expressly has nothing to do with utility. In fact, utilitarianism and Bentham/Mill are seen as expressly opposite Aristotle's virtue ethics, not building on it. (Kant's deontology being the third main philosophical alternative.)

Similarly, pursuing an objective without distraction could not be less Aristotelian. If you could boil down virtue ethics to a single line, it would be that virtue is about finding the happy medium between excesses.

I think you're confusing something else with Nicomachean Ethics. I'm kind of curious what it is now, though.

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just bear in mind that Russell was very biased in favor of Analytic philosophy, so you're not going to get much from him on the Continentals. Like many other Analytics, he seriously misreads Nietzsche, and he doesn't even mention Heidegger, Husserl, Sartre, or Foucault. I like Russell, though. He's clear and eloquent, writing well on the subjects he does appreciate and understand.

Russell is up front about his biases and limitations in that book, at least. IIRC he divides most chapters into his best effort to describe a philosopher or movement's positions or ideas, then an analysis of how those have held up since (this is incredibly helpful and absent in a lot of texts that try to be dryly objective and not even report any more-or-less consensus passing-of-judgement by philosophy as a field) a…

Yeah, that dismissive, condescending view of Bergson is par for the course of many Analytic's attitudes towards Continentals (though Bergson himself was not part of the Continental tradition).

Sure, such condescension may be the best that Russell can muster, but I'm not sure you'd get a charitable reading of Bergson (or any other philosopher Russell didn't like) from someone so hostile and unappreciative of him.

Russell did take Nietzsche more seriously, but to me it seems Nietzsche just went over Russell's head. Russell is best at reading other philosophers who, like himself, are clear, easy to understand, and relatively conventional.

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#95

Anyone rememer how that New Yorker piece describes HN as a place full of performative erudition?

Funny in its way. I was thinking about this a while back. IMO HN as a community is mostly introverted (subjective/qualitative) and structure-biased, so open-ended discussions on "erudite" topics which may not be direct specialties of commenters will encourage a sort of performing or even bluffing effect, out of community-identity stress.

At that time I think I concluded that the least-pressured conversations, and likely most positive and upbeat, would be those on topics like retro computing. Such a topic is close to the HN tech-user specialty, close to the heart because of its strong integration with personal past experiences, and mostly made up of "known" or "closed-ended" topics. So, far from a performance or bluff, you get some pretty passionate tales from direct experience, and erudition be damned.

Not sure if that's a rule, but so far it matches my personal perceptions of what makes a really good discussion here, vs. one that's...less like that.

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#96
To help put this into context for others here.

It's interesting to note that Aristotle's "virtue ethics" -- based primarily on this work -- have come "back into fashion" over the past few decades, after being largely ignored by philosophers for centuries as having any contemporary relevance. (I.e. you studied it for the historical value mainly, but it had zero connection otherwise to contemporary analytic philosophy.)

The two main strands of philosophical thought over the past few centuries have been deontology (best exemplified by Kant) which is that you follow specific moral rules ("don't kill", "don't lie", "keep a promise") no matter what, and utilitarianism (Bentham/Mill) which is "the greatest good for the greatest number" (divert the trolley to kill one person instead of five).

They both obviously have truth to them but are also deeply incompatible with each other. Aristotle's "virtue ethics" says instead that what is most important is one's character, and that a virtuous character comes from a balance of temperaments. For example, you shouldn't get angry all the time, but you also shouldn't be cowardly all the time. Good character means knowing the right times to take bold angry action, but also knowing the right times to stay back out of fear -- and that honing good judgment is the key to knowing when. Sometimes it means breaking a promise, sometimes it means sacrificing a greater good for another principle, and there isn't always an obviously right answer.

Thus the idea of "good judgment that can't be reduced to strict rules" is now seen as an equally viable alternative to deontology and utilitarianism. Perhaps because it seems particularly relevant in an age of relativism.

Also perhaps particularly telling, in the TV show The Good Place which recently ended, and where every episode is about a different philosophical dilemma, when the creater Mike Schur was asked about which philosophical system was closest to his own beliefs, he replied that it would have to be Aristotle's virtue ethics.

I personally found reading Nicomachean Ethics a fascinating experience, because it was written pre-Christianity, so the complete and utter lack of notions of "good and evil" is revelatory. We're so used to thinking in such terms in much of the world, it's refreshing to see a totally different worldview.

In case anyone is curious for a modern treatment of Aristotelian thought, Martha Nussbaum's book Upheaveals of Thought played a big part in "rehabilitating" Aristotle in contemporary philosophy. It has parallels to the vein of "emotional intelligence" that became popular a few years earlier.

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#97
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read HN because not just that happens, but also the comments will usually provide several other insights or links of equal value!

Perhaps this is an idea for a bookmarklet: for any Wikipedia article, click on the bookmarklet and get the HN comments related to it.

You might be able to use https://hn.algolia.com/ which searches every comment/submission from HN. Just paste in a wikipedia link to see if it has already been submitted, then click to the comment section.

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#98

To help put this into context for others here. It's interesting to note that Aristotle's "virtue ethics" -- based primarily on this work -- have come "back into fashion" over the past few decades, after being largely ignored by philosophers for centuries as having any contemporary relevance. (I.e. you studied it for the historical value mainly, but it had zero connection otherwise to contemporary analytic philosophy.…

For additional context, other Socratic schools like Stoicism are also virtue-ethical schools. For folks who are looking for a very specific rule to a life situation, virtue ethics can feel too ambiguous, but for someone like myself, who believes that life is extremely contextual and there can be a lot of legitimate variation in responding to something, Virtue Ethics is wonderfully nuanced and flexible.

I for one really appreciate the renewed attention to ethics in recent decades from philosophers. It's a reorientation to one of the oldest purposes of philosophy -- to teach us how to live well.

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#99
post #2

I took a “History of Philosophy” class as a GE my freshman year of college. It’s pretty astounding, when you start tracing it back, how much of our law, literature, politics, ethics, and aesthetics come from, like, four or five Greek guys.

> how much of our law, literature, politics, ethics, and aesthetics come from, like, four or five Greek guys.

I always wondered what the world would have been like if these people got fervent followers and governed nations/cultures instead of the religious "prophets"

Re: Nicomachean Ethics

#100
post #8

This is one of the books that, until yo do read it, you think (because that is the “folklore wisdom”) will be a huge bore. Then it blows your mind, and you start to understand freedom.

I had the same experience. I read it in 2007, and have been thinking about it ever since. One of my top 5 books ever, maybe to 3.
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