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First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

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Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#91

Post by tcd »

jhoechtl wrote: post #79
antpls wrote: post #60

Again, this solution _cannot_ work and it is a _threat_ to a permanent loss of privacy. This is like the government and the adtech companies sleeping in the same bed, without any other power opposition in the balance. 1) The "solution" is created by a monopoly of 2 american private corporations. 2) It can only work reliably if everyone wear an (Apple or Android) phone at all time, and consent to give data 3) You are…

I am so terribly frightened by that move I am seriously considering getting rid of Android. Of what I have heard it's going to be backed into the OS and not installed as an app I could de-install / block, right? What truly open Smart phone OSes are available besides Android and iOS?

None. If you're concerned, do not carry a spy around with you.

I know, it's a scary thought compared to 30 years ago, but it's possible.

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#92

Post by tcd »

IanCal wrote: post #80
tastroder wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To ease on the fear mongering front here: This proposal relies on an app implementing these protocols, you're free to uninstall the app after the pandemic - or not install it in the first place. It is furthermore trivial to check if your device sends out these BTLE packets. It's not a "can we put the genie back in the bottle" scenario if the genie is wearing a bright warning vest announcing its presence everywhere. Y…

I'm not sure I'd count this as fearmongering. I think I know which way the tradeoffs work in my mind but there's not an unreasonable set of paths that lead to this being more permanent. Given the broad powers passed recently in the UK they could make having this app a legal requirement to go in any shop if they wanted, and whether apps can be uninstalled reasonably is down to whoever controls the OS. Would it not mak…

> they could make having this app a legal requirement to go in any shop if they wanted

If they can legally mandate an "app" they can mandate me having a device to run said "app".

It'd be absolutely absurd to mandate you having a spy with you at all times to exist in society.

"Sorry, don't have a phone, kthx", "Sorry, my phone doesn't use gapps, it's using a custom ROM", and what about these Linux phones?

Yeah, that's not going to work.

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#93

Post by simion314 »

antpls wrote: post #66
adamweld wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) and 2) - the fact that Google and Apple have what is essentially a monopoly on smartphone software is exactly what makes this a good approach. it's the easiest way to reach a high percentage of the population. 3) false positive are a hell of a lot better than having no way to trace back contacts while someone was asymptomatic but contagious. 4) it helps stop others from becoming infected and possibly dying. how is…

> 4) it helps stop others from becoming infected and possibly dying. how is that not a good thing? The virus will always be here, we cannot hide forever, we must find a way to cure it or reduce its biological effect. Once covid19 goes away (if ever), and a new virus appears, NO ONE will have that app turned on, and by then, the new virus will have spread just like covid19. I have a very simple solution to win time :…

Why not implement all your solution and contact tracing, won't help you to know that the person you sit near in a bus/plane just died by an infection diseases? Maybe you are doomed but you might just save your family. The next virus might affect children not only elders, we need to have every possible tool at our disposal including PPR, test equipment.

Maybe contact tracing is late (or maybe not) but is good to have a good system ready when the next one might appear.

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#94

Post by DagAgren »

grumple wrote: post #86

Yikes, this is prep for big brother's guilt by association. I wouldn't want to test positive for anything the state can track (radical ideas? you're now a positive in this system). Opt out.

Or, it's just what it says. It's a way to implement test and trace, something that is absolutely needed to stop a pandemic like this from killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of people.

Everything isn't a slippy slope. Everything isn't about your privacy. Everything isn't a grand conspiracy that only you can see and the sheeple are too dumb to understand.

Sometimes, extreme measures are needed.

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#95

Post by DagAgren »

daenz wrote: post #16

An important question here is: will this framework go away once the pandemic is over? Something tells me it won't.

Of course it will. These companies could already track you far more efficiently than this allows them to. This system makes tracking LESS efficient, not more. It serves no purpose other than what is stated.

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#96

Post by [deleted] »

tinus_hn wrote: post #76
est31 wrote: post #9

Note that years ago, Moxie has studied a similar problem of how to let users know if their contacts use Signal or not without uploading the whole address books like e.g. WhatsApp does [0]. It's similar because in both instances you want to "match" users in some fashion using a centralized service while keeping their privacy. He ruled out downloads of megabytes of data (something that the Google/Apple proposal would i…

The proposed system requires download of 16 bytes per infected user per day. Unless this really gets out of hand that’s not in the megabytes range.

[deleted]

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#97

Post by FartyMcFarter »

olliej wrote: post #54

Let's just answer these * Use stationary beacons to track someone’s travel path Doesn't work because there's no externally visible correlation between reported identifiers until after the user chooses to report there test result. * Increased hit rate of stationary / marketing beacons Doesn't work because they depend on coherence in the beacons, and the identifiers roll every 10 or so minutes. Presumably you'd ensure…

> Doesn't work because there's no externally visible correlation between reported identifiers until after the user chooses to report there test result.

So you're saying it works after the user reports their test result.

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#98

Post by pferde »

What's it with people making long, split-up twitter threads like this? They're cumbersome and hard to read. Be an adult, write and publish an article on your blog.

It feels weird having to criticize Marlinspike about this, but stupid practices are stupid no matter how prestigious the person doing them is.

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#99

Post by doomrobo »

toohotatopic wrote: post #69
est31 wrote: post #9

Note that years ago, Moxie has studied a similar problem of how to let users know if their contacts use Signal or not without uploading the whole address books like e.g. WhatsApp does [0]. It's similar because in both instances you want to "match" users in some fashion using a centralized service while keeping their privacy. He ruled out downloads of megabytes of data (something that the Google/Apple proposal would i…

You don't need full SGX if you trust the provider. People already trust providers with their medical data. Why not trust some computation service to do the matching? This is a moment for trustworthy institutions to create data centers and get customers by their reputation. Combine a big market of trustworthy providers and SGX, and abuse becomes much more difficult.

To answer your question: the handling of medical data is governed by HIPPA. Everything else (outside banking data) in the US (outside of California) is pretty much fair game.

Re: First look at Apple/Google contact tracing framework

#100

Post by searchableguy »

pferde wrote: post #98

What's it with people making long, split-up twitter threads like this? They're cumbersome and hard to read. Be an adult, write and publish an article on your blog. It feels weird having to criticize Marlinspike about this, but stupid practices are stupid no matter how prestigious the person doing them is.

Because it gets more visibility on twitter than a blog and is already something many people using Twitter do.

You can use threaderapp to get a blog post out of it.

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