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How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

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Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#91
post #12
post #5

The mask guidance is confusing as well. I get they are trying to preserve masks for medical staff. But, they also say it's mainly spread by coughing, sneezing, and resulting spray of bodily fluids. Surely even a scarf around your face would have some benefit? Yes, I get that the virus is small enough to pass through, but some deflection is better than none.

Agreed. The US surgeon general lied to the population about the efficacy of masks to try to preserve them for healthcare workers. It would have been better to ask people to preserve N95 for healthcare workers and instead improvise their own. Any reduction in droplet transmission is going to drop the R0 of this and help flatten the curve. As an alternative see Hong Kong, where they are encouraging the population to im…

Improvised masks commonly provide little protection, but obstruct breathing so people suck in more air with more force, increasing their risk of exposure.

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#92
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea this is really frustrating. I bought a box of 10 N-95s in January when I saw what was going on in China and figured they’d be good to have, since I have older people in my family who are in poor health (leukemia, diabetes, heart disease). Now since I’m shopping and cooking for them, I am trying really hard not to get sick so I wear a mask to the stores and I’m getting looks from people like I stole them from a ho…

> Now since I’m shopping and cooking for them, I am trying really hard not to get sick so I wear a mask to the stores and I’m getting looks from people like I stole them from a hospital. I have an N99 (actually FFP3, a pretty much equivalent European standard I gather) from some DIY work a year or so ago; I haven't been out in some time, but when I did I didn't wear it for the same reason. It will be interesting to s…

This will probably hit us culturally the way SARS hit east Asia in the early aughts. The good news is that we likely won't be caught completely flat footed against a pandemic again.

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#93
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Washington state just seized a restock from a Target in Seattle. https://twitter.com/GovInslee/status/1241505423259099136

I really want to hear the back story on this. Who is the distributor? Why did they end up at a Target? I'm betting the distributor tried to sell them to hospitals but the hospitals said they weren't appropriate/certified for medical use so couldn't take them? Not much to go on from a tweet but definitely needs investigating.

There’s this idea thats not even close to correct that we as a country have somehow tracked and accounted for all masks. Someone sent me some N-95 masks like around 9 days ago (which I didn’t ask for) which they got from industrial suppliers. This is a coordination and information problem not a capacity issue so I expect to see more like this.

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#94
post #17
post #5

The mask guidance is confusing as well. I get they are trying to preserve masks for medical staff. But, they also say it's mainly spread by coughing, sneezing, and resulting spray of bodily fluids. Surely even a scarf around your face would have some benefit? Yes, I get that the virus is small enough to pass through, but some deflection is better than none.

The CDC is letting perfect get in the way of good. If you look at almost all of their actions, they continually clamp down on things that might work because they have not been proven. It seems to me that they are led by academics and theoreticians with very little operational capability at the top decision making channels.

Pretty much. We're seeing the result of institutional decay at every level.

"In the middle of the 20th century, a cadre of credentialed experts was created to replace citizens. This was a mistake. The selection mechanism for entry into this cadre selects against bravery and original thinking. Experts should be consulted, but what use is an expert unwilling to consult on a grand vision? The American system of the 2020s through the city, county, state, and up to the federal level has been staffed with people who know how to speak and make themselves appear blameless, but not how to act."

https://americanmind.org/features/the-coronacrisis-and-our-f...

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#95
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now it’s paradoxical: according to the government, masks are useless for civilians, but essential to medical personnel.

There is a resolution to the paradox. Masks do work (especially when worn correctly), but the net-optimal place to put them to work is keeping medical personnel up and functional. Have spare masks? We are trying to get them to the people who need them most: https://findthemasks.com/ We are presently listing hospitals accepting small-scale donations in 28 states, growing fast.

Except that wasn't the actual message coming from the Surgeon General. The original message appears to intentionally obscure the fact that not only does the US not have enough masks for our civilians, we also don't have enough masks for our health care professionals.

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#96
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very irritating because people don't understand the concept of defense in depth. Are surgical masks going to give you total protection? Of course not, but as you say they provide SOME benefit. Saying "masks don't work because they don't fully stop the virus and users misuse them" is basically equivalent to saying "code review is a waste of time because it won't catch every bug and because devs don't do it correc…

If there are two "mental tools" I wish we could teach every person, they are exponential growth and statistical thinking. Neither is intuitive, but they would help people understand this whole situation (and many others) a lot better.

https://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_populati...

"It's a great pleasure to be here, and to have a chance just to share with you some very simple ideas about the problems we're facing. Some of these problems are local, some are national, some are global.

They're all tied together. They're tied together by arithmetic, and the arithmetic isn't very difficult. What I hope to do is, I hope to be able to convince you that the greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."

Most people I try to explain the current problems are really not able to understand. I explain that the spread is exponential, and that the problem is that is grows so fast. I say look at the graph from China, look at the graph from Italy.

They answer "ah, the Chinese maybe hid some numbers."

I say, it just doesn't matter, only the shape of the curve matters, and it repeats in every land. Even if the Chinese hid half of the cases, that difference disappears in only three-four days in our locations, where it grows so fast, as it grew in China before they did their measures, much harder than ours.

They don't understand still. They think only "80000 in China is more than "50000 in Italy" and it stops there. That Italy will get from 50K to 100K in four days, that's what they don't understand until they'd see it happened, but it would still, sadly, not convince them in anything.

Whereas, not only it's just the shape of the curve that matters, we know exactly why the spread is exponential, and what has to be done to change the shape: manage to stop the people who have it to transmit the virus to the rest of the population. It's "just" people who spread it -- the virus is not a bacteria, it doesn't live or multiply by itself, it needs a host which will replicate it, and the only host spreading it among the humans is human. There's nothing else that we know to work than that.

The major danger is that 4 from 5 carriers of the virus won't feel so bad to think that they should really stay at home. Most of the carriers aren't aware what they do. They all have their lives where what they do at the moment is "urgent" and "must be done." As soon as the droplets they produce enter the lungs of other people, the virus is spread. The droplets are tiny enough to be normally invisible to us, of course.

It doesn't help at all that the most of the highest politicians, across many different countries, downplayed the seriousness of the situation for a long time. Even less that the scientific ignorance was promoted as a virtue for even longer times.

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#97
post #69
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole blaming people for hoarding masks and then the "masks don't work" things have been incredibly frustrating. It is almost like authorities didn't want anyone to start asking why the public couldn't get masks, as they can in say Taiwan. Most (if not all) distributors and manufacturers of masks has been prioritizing health care systems and governments over retailers since January. Just as they should do. Were t…

- If you tell the public that masks are great protection, and the public can't find then to buy, that is a huge source of unrest. - The messaging (in Spain but looks similar everywhere) has been that you should wear one if you are sick or, more importantly here, if you are at risk. This is a clear indication that they do help protect against being infected. This should have prevented everyone from harassing anyone we…

If people are collectively idiots, then telling 'white' lies like this only throws fuel on the fire by eroding what little trust people have in genuine authorities/experts. Without trust in those authorities/experts, the 'idiot' collective masses will behave even stupider.

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#98
I have a box of n95 masks I bought a few years back while living in Singapore (there is an annual smoke “haze” there from neighboring countries burning forest to clear land for palm oil production). I tried to give them to a nurse to distribute to other medical staff, but they couldn’t use them because they are a year or so beyond the expiration. News to me that masks even have an expiration date.

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are spreading misinformation yourself. Even your own link doesn't support exactly what you just said. "Renaming" is not what happened. Your link: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/17/instagram-...

> After Ziemer’s departure, the global health team was reorganized as part of an effort by then-National Security Adviser John Bolton From https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/dems-misconstrue-trump-bud... > Morrison objected to claims that the office was “dissolved,” writing in the Post on March 16 that the administration “create[d] the counterproliferation and biodefense directorate, which was the result of consolidat…

Why on earth would anyone believe a Trump Appointee on what happened. The administration has proven themselves time and time again to lie through their teeth. And it sure seems to me that Arms Control, Weapons of Mass Destruction don't have that much in common with Global Health. And if it did, where is that agency right now during this crisis?

Re: How the CDC’s restrictive testing guidelines hid the coronavirus epidemic

#100
post #57
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a resolution to the paradox. Masks do work (especially when worn correctly), but the net-optimal place to put them to work is keeping medical personnel up and functional. Have spare masks? We are trying to get them to the people who need them most: https://findthemasks.com/ We are presently listing hospitals accepting small-scale donations in 28 states, growing fast.

That's not a resolution because the claim is that they're useless ("not effective"), which is not the same as there existing a better use. They could have communicated the truth, instead they chose to lie, which erodes trust. https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321...

YOU are making the claim that they’re useless. “Not effective” does not mean “useless”

You are making a dishonest argument to make your misguided point.

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