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UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

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Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#91

Post by scarmig »

james-skemp wrote: post #82
beetwenty wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A representative for the union that represents more than 19,000 academic workers across the University of California system said she was surprised by the university's decision. "We are shocked by UC's callousness, and by the violence that so many protesters experienced as they peacefully made the case for a cost of living increase," said Kavitha Iyengar, president of UAW Local 2865, in a statement. "Instead of firing…

I thought the same thing as they. From the article: "The strike, which is not authorized by the union that represents the graduate student employees, is in violation of the current bargaining agreement, the university said." It's not clear that the union authorized it, despite what they're quoted as saying further down the article. I don't know enough about unions to know whether they could authorize a strike after n…

At the legal level, unions are obligated to prevent wildcat strikes. That's why people talk about a grand bargain between labor and capital happening mid century: unions would channel labor conflict into a bureaucratic process, and in return capital would agree in principle to negotiate with the union.

In practice, union bureaucrats really dislike wildcat strikes. They dissipate the negotiating power of the union; they basically show the entire hand of the union's most powerful weapon, at a time the union views as suboptimal. And it's usually the threat of a strike, not the strike itself, that companies are more scared of: a company highy desires to avoid a disruption, but if it's already in progress, they don't have an incentive to negotiate unless the union has a really strong hand.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#92

Post by nostrebored »

throwqwerty wrote: post #81
nostrebored wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should they expect a living wage for sub-demand fields of research? Why do my choices to achieve financial stability override my experience prior to that? When you're from a poor family the decisions that these striking students are making are befuddling.

because they perform a service. they teach classes. that's literally what they were withholding - grades for classes they TA. so there is plenty of demand for that service. it has nothing to do with the labor market after they graduate. god some people just fall all over themselves to be smug.

If you want to have an actual conversation, I'm happy to. If not, let me know so I don't waste my time.

They do perform a service, sometimes teaching classes, sometimes grading papers, sometimes assisting with office hours. They get paid $2400/mo, putting them above median salary for full-time TAs.

Nobody is forcing them to go to graduate school in California and accept this job. This isn't something that they were coerced into.

The fact of the matter is that research is still a demand driven field. This is why you'll see stipends and grants to assist students in higher demand fields, like computer science.

When I was in school a few years ago, everyone knew that if they were not receiving a grant, they were going to be paying for their education. This isn't a surprise, and if they are willing to make the decision to fund their further education, that is something they should be able to do.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#93

Post by dsfyu404ed »

gist wrote: post #9
daly wrote: post #2

I lived on 54 cent pancakes covered in free butter and honey, 9 cents per can baked beans (turns out I don't like baked beans, I like good sauce which this was not), and candy bars out of a broken and never fixed candy machine. I don't recommend it. I weighed 110 pounds by the time I left. All of my money went to dorm housing (paid to the school). Later when I was a researcher I found out that the Provost takes 55% o…

Why do you (and others) think that education and academia is somehow special and not the same as, say, acting (or any career) where people regularly earn no money and work bad 2nd jobs just to survive and do something they love or want as a career? In a free market system nobody is telling you to choose that career and a University and (typically) a non-profit doesn't have any particular incentive to not act in their…

>Also I am sure the janitor at the University is paid decently and loves to work there. Reason is there are not as many people lined up for that job and basic economics takes over.

Janitor and other unskilled labor jobs at public universities tend to pay crap but are highly sought after because they usually come with the union negotiated benefits package that makes them a better value (than local work in private industry for more money and less benefits) for many people.

Back when I was doing those kinds of jobs I wouldn't even think about wasting my time working for a public university but I was young and needed the money more than I needed healthcare and 40hr weeks.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#94

Post by SamReidHughes »

pergadad wrote: post #40
gist wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you (and others) think that education and academia is somehow special and not the same as, say, acting (or any career) where people regularly earn no money and work bad 2nd jobs just to survive and do something they love or want as a career? In a free market system nobody is telling you to choose that career and a University and (typically) a non-profit doesn't have any particular incentive to not act in their…

In the Netherlands every PhD will be paid fairly decently. That's how it should be. Nor excuse for rich universities like those in UK & US to exploit those dreaming of s research career.

Just with some fast googling, I think they're paid in about the same range as US PhD's. Or am I mistaken?

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#95

Post by throwqwerty »

nostrebored wrote: post #92
throwqwerty wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because they perform a service. they teach classes. that's literally what they were withholding - grades for classes they TA. so there is plenty of demand for that service. it has nothing to do with the labor market after they graduate. god some people just fall all over themselves to be smug.

If you want to have an actual conversation, I'm happy to. If not, let me know so I don't waste my time. They do perform a service, sometimes teaching classes, sometimes grading papers, sometimes assisting with office hours. They get paid $2400/mo, putting them above median salary for full-time TAs. Nobody is forcing them to go to graduate school in California and accept this job. This isn't something that they were c…

>Nobody is forcing them to go to graduate school in California and accept this job. This isn't something that they were coerced into.

What is the significance of this point when literally no one is forced or coerced except for slaves? By this token absolutely no one should be striking for higher wages - they should all go work somewhere else. Oh wait...

>They do perform a service, sometimes teaching classes, sometimes grading papers, sometimes assisting with office hours. They get paid $2400/mo, putting them above median salary for full-time TAs.

Medían where? The entire United States? California? Santa Cruz? And exactly why is that relevant anyway? It's quite possible that the median wage isn't enough! And this would be part of the process for raising it.

>The fact of the matter is that research is still a demand driven field. This is why you'll see stipends and grants to assist students in higher demand fields, like computer science.

When you look at the average salary of a tenured UC professor (the kind that takes on grad students) and the average salary of appointed administrators (deans, provosts, etc) it's very hard to believe that the issue is lack of money and not allocation.

I also have no idea what cs/stem has to do with this. Most stem PhDs don't get more money either (most do not have fellowships nor their own grants).

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#96

Post by dntbnmpls »

csomar wrote: post #61
csb6 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think it is a good introduction to the real world, but for a different reason: it shows that workers are treated as disposable goods that employers can and will throw away whenever they become too much of a hassle or ask for compensation that reflects the value they bring to the organization. Universities are no different to businesses in this respect; the success of colleges depends on the grunt work of grad…

> The way workers in this country are treated is god-awful, and I'm saddened by the people in this thread who are cheering the firing of these students. I'm not cheering their firing. I'm just explaining why their strike did not work out as they wished. > ask for compensation that reflects the value they bring to the organization That's not how it works in the real world. You get paid by market rate; which means if t…

> You get paid by market rate;

I love how people dismiss injustice with an appeal to "the market" as if the market was a force of nature rather than a manmade and human manipulated entity.

Markets are created by a handful of people and affected by laws. And supply and demand is also an man-made creation. For example, by creating laws allowing seasonal migrants, you could affect the wages of farm workers. The same thing with work visas like H1-B. Also, laws favoring employers' rights and workers' rights can also affect wages. And of course "credentialing" and artificially limiting supply in the case of doctors affects wages.

> Universities are a competitive business, too;

Not really. Pretty much all the top universities stay at the top because of legacy. Also UC Santa Cruz is a public university. Very little chance it is going to be out-competed and put out of business.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#97

Post by mathattack »

As long as there are plenty of other grad students to fill the spots behind them, of course they will get fired.

It’s easier for UCSC to find backfills than for these students to find new schools.

Even if the school is sympathetic to the cause, it’s easier for the school to call the bluff on 54 grad students this year than 540 next year.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#98

Post by awinder »

valid4life wrote: post #83

I'm an undergrad at UCSC right now and have found the entire strike to be more detrimental to their cause. They've lost so much undergrad support after disrupting a STEM midterm and shutting down campus causing us to miss the classes we have paid for. I even lost my grades last quarter as my TA was fired ( of the 54 ) and he has refused to hand them over post firing. What it has done to the undergraduates is a little…

What happened with your grades in those classes? I read the university systems release and this article and couldn’t glean the details. Is that course’s grades still just up in the air?

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#99

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

csomar wrote: post #49

I think this is a wake-up call for these grad students of how the real world works. > Instead of firing TAs who are standing up for a decent standard of living for themselves, UC must sit down at the bargaining table and negotiate a cost of living increase. Sitting at the negotiations table where you hold none of the cards means you are not getting the pay increase you are asking for. Striking is for workers who know…

With time, the supply of graduate students should fall. Nobody should want to accept such a deal when these folks could go work in industry and make far money than the UC system will ever pay them. Getting 50-some replacement graduates could be a challenge for UC Santa Cruz. Usually enrollment is on an annual cycle.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#100

Post by awinder »

csomar wrote: post #49

I think this is a wake-up call for these grad students of how the real world works. > Instead of firing TAs who are standing up for a decent standard of living for themselves, UC must sit down at the bargaining table and negotiate a cost of living increase. Sitting at the negotiations table where you hold none of the cards means you are not getting the pay increase you are asking for. Striking is for workers who know…

I had a different impression, which is that they had cards and deployed them poorly. They seem to have whittled the holdouts down to a point where the impact wasn’t so great. But I’m kinda curious if UC doesn’t make grade reporting more incremental now.
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