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Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

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Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#91

Post by random314 »

throw0099 wrote: post #78
senordevnyc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, we’re trading anecdotes? Well, I know a lot of people, including many involved in hiring at various large tech companies, including myself. I’m sure they have programs to encourage diversity in hiring, but I seriously doubt they’re telling you they “blatantly discriminate” against white men and that white men have to perform much better in an interview in order to be hired. That’s an incomplete and simplistic sto…

Referral bonuses for women and minorities, and especially female minorities, are 5x what they are for white men at my company. They may not say "go discriminate against white men," but they certainly say "we will pay you a lot more to get us somebody who isn't a white man." I'm someone who really likes having diverse engineering teams, but that sort of practice is pretty distasteful and obviously not meritocratic.

Yes of course, you love diversity.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#92

Post by dkdk8283 »

theredlion wrote: post #43
j7ake wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are black and female software engineers in USA right now the demographic that really needs helping? Im not American, so I probably need clarification, but what is their current situation compared to white males in the same position at a company?

That's an interesting question. I'm personally aware of several large companies in my area which, due to diversity pressure, blatantly discriminate in favor of minorities and women. The performance required from a white man in an interview for the same job is higher. That is to say that a white man will be openly discarded in favor of a minority/woman with a similar background when applying for the same job. This is…

I’m at a 1000 person org and this is also how we hire. We have KPIs for “diversity” and the entire company gets a huge bonus when we meet all our targets, so there is a incentive all the way from the CEO to panel ICs.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#93

Post by xenihn »

senordevnyc wrote: post #32
j7ake wrote: post #28

I always support disclosing salary information but I found it silly that the original tweet was prefaced with some greater goal of helping minorities or disadvantaged people. The subtext was clearly a flex to show how good developer salaries are in the USA, and by disguising it as doing some social good the tweet came off as distasteful. A person in Nigeria is not being helped by the person in US disclosing their sal…

When people in the US talk about disadvantaged minorities, they generally mean minorities in the US. And a bunch of white American male software engineers disclosing their salaries can definitely help black and female software engineers.

I see just as many asian female engineers as white male software engineers in the bay. And more asian female engineers than male black+hispanic+pacific islander+native american engineers combined. You should be much more concerned with class than gender, otherwise you won't actually solve any issues related to diversity. You'll only make it worse.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#94

Post by uncletaco »

cdoxsey wrote: post #75
grumple wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It includes people from all over the world. US skilled salaries are usually 2x+ (not just for tech, but also things like healthcare) salaries in Europe. Remember they have social safety nets and lower costs for things like education and healthcare, we do not. Also this list has a very small sample size, and very few people from big tech, otherwise the pay would skew significantly higher.

The US has social safety nets. Nearly half the federal budget is spent on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. And there are numerous other programs: unemployment, housing assistance, snap, etc. There are also state and local programs as well as private charities.

Social security and Medicare are both social safety nets that one cannot take advantage of while they're working in most cases, and everything else you've mentioned either requires a person to be in extreme poverty or severely disabled.

Meanwhile a healthy, young, gainfully employed person in France can take advantage of a wealth of social services and benefits.

Mentioning them the way you have requires a very uncharitable interpretation of the previous posters point.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#95

Post by random314 »

j7ake wrote: post #28

I always support disclosing salary information but I found it silly that the original tweet was prefaced with some greater goal of helping minorities or disadvantaged people. The subtext was clearly a flex to show how good developer salaries are in the USA, and by disguising it as doing some social good the tweet came off as distasteful. A person in Nigeria is not being helped by the person in US disclosing their sal…

The shtick about minorities was absurd. If the poster wanted to really inform his audience, all he had to do was link to levels.fyi with several thousand anonymous salary reports and skip the virtue signaling. Weird flex but ok ....

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#96

Post by senordevnyc »

throw0099 wrote: post #78
senordevnyc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, we’re trading anecdotes? Well, I know a lot of people, including many involved in hiring at various large tech companies, including myself. I’m sure they have programs to encourage diversity in hiring, but I seriously doubt they’re telling you they “blatantly discriminate” against white men and that white men have to perform much better in an interview in order to be hired. That’s an incomplete and simplistic sto…

Referral bonuses for women and minorities, and especially female minorities, are 5x what they are for white men at my company. They may not say "go discriminate against white men," but they certainly say "we will pay you a lot more to get us somebody who isn't a white man." I'm someone who really likes having diverse engineering teams, but that sort of practice is pretty distasteful and obviously not meritocratic.

This is an excellent example of what I’m talking about. We tell ourselves stories about what’s going on here based on our own biases, not solely on the objective facts.

If you want diverse engineering teams but you have a serious pipeline problem where few minority and female engineers apply, what can you do? One answer is to encourage more referrals for those candidates by paying a higher referral bonus. It doesn’t seem like “blatant discrimination” to me, any more than having a recruiting fair at a historically black college would be.

Also, as a side note, what company is this? And how are bonuses 5x as high for women but also “especially” for minority women. Which is it?

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#97

Post by ghaff »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #48
pansa2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it true that you can be fired in the US without being given a reason? Incidentally, I’ve always thought this was one of the reasons US salaries are so high. Employees in the US are almost comparable to contractors in Europe (who are paid significantly more than permanent employees).

Yep https://www.seattletimes.com/explore/careers/can-you-get-fir... And hmm, that's an interesting comparison. Contractors in the US are also paid significantly more than employees.

>Contractors in the US are also paid significantly more than employees.

Not really surprising all other things being equal. Contractors are often not getting benefits which can be more than a quarter of the total comp package.

Furthermore, contractors are often assumed to be being paid on an as-needed basis with less downtime like training that are factors with full-time employees.

When I had clients, a had a pretty high effective daily rate. But that didn't really translate into outsized take-home pay because so much "free" work went into being able to charge that sometime high daily rate.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#98

Post by adamsea »

j7ake wrote: post #38
senordevnyc wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people in the US talk about disadvantaged minorities, they generally mean minorities in the US. And a bunch of white American male software engineers disclosing their salaries can definitely help black and female software engineers.

Are black and female software engineers in USA right now the demographic that really needs helping? Im not American, so I probably need clarification, but what is their current situation compared to white males in the same position at a company?

They often - or maybe even usually - get paid less for the same work. Plenty of studies and articles out there discussing this from both sides (saying it happens, saying it doesn’t) so imho google is the best way to go if you are curious.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#99

Post by scarface74 »

dmitriid wrote: post #67
lazyasciiart wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very surprising interpretation to me. What made you think the author was thinking about anyone outside the US?

That's probably exactly the point. They disclose salary info in a global forum without any context. For example, to begin with: what country is this? What city? Is this before or after tax? If this is before tax, how much do you pay in taxes? etc. etc. etc. People joining in continue this trend, often with quips like "I make $145k a year, I'm underpaid". WTF? How is that underpaid ? Oh? You probably mean "underpaid i…

It’s only a “dick measuring” contest if either you tie your self worth to salary or you think they do.

When I see software developer salaries for SV companies, I’m mildly curious but I don’t look at them in envy. The two trade offs would be moving to the west coast and working for large companies. I’m interested in neither.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#100

Post by gpanders »

komali2 wrote: post #83
tchaffee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's useful to see what your peers are earning, especially for your next salary negotiation. And it's pretty obvious that if you don't live in SF, you shouldn't expect SF salaries.

This was always strange for me, and is a regular drunken debate between my roommates and I. If a company operates in a global market, why should it pay dramatically different salaries in different cities? For example, our London engineers make like 70k to our 140. But we both work on the same product. We both make the company the same amount of money. I've always thought it was just another bit of bullshit capitalist…

One possible explanation is that the market rate for a developer in two different cities is different, so said company has no choice but to pay those two developers different salaries if they want to hire them at all.

It's simply supply and demand. An engineer in SF won't work for less than 140 (not when there are so many other jobs that will pay that) while an engineer in London will.

So why doesn't the company just pay the developer in London (or Hanoi) the same as in SF? Well, why should they? Reducing costs is the rational course of action; regular people do the exact same thing.

If anything, you're making an argument against companies hiring from SF. If two developers, one in Hanoi and one in SF, truly do provide the same value, then why on Earth would said company pay almost twice as much to hire the one from SF?

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