Companies that are nowhere near as successful as those in the US, developer salaries that are nowhere near those in the US. I don't think I get it.
Not every developer is able, or willing to try, to get a job in the US.
U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
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Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#92Taxes in canada are very high. The ontario income tax rate of 53.53% applies at 220K CAD. the equivalent rate for Cali in USD is 34.75%. you then have PST/GST (14%), way fewer deductions and european gas taxes. The one thing that is a good deal in canada is cheap high quality education. The "free" healthcare that you get is not very good and even the for pay services are of surprisingly low quality.
We immigrated from the bay area to British Columbia a few years ago. We pay taxes in the US and Canada . Taxes aren't much higher in Canada. And we've used the health care a lot and honestly it's excellent and you don't have to worry about losing it due to job loss.
Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The "free" healthcare that you get is not very good Utter bullshit. Source: the many friends and family members who have been treated by the system.
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Anecdotes are just that. Anecdotes. The most objective and comprehensive measure of health outcomes, life expectancy at birth, remains significantly higher in Canada than in the United States.
Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#94The Bay Area is full. Voters certainly don’t want any growth here. It’s time for companies to move out of the bay area
I'm a voter in the Bay Area and I disagree. So do many others. The Bay Area isn't even close to full, it's just NIMBYs who hate any change blocking things.
Sure there’s land everywhere especially in the east bay I can see miles and miles of empty space even from 580
I meant politically, the Bimbys don’t want more people in the bay area that’s why so many anti growth politicians get elected
Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#95I'm moving from San Francisco to Toronto soon. Staying at the same job, my salary will go from $180k usd to $128k usd ($170k cad). (Equity comp remains the same) That's a pretty big cut, though at least for me it's worth it because of non-monetary reasons, like being closer to family, not dealing with immigration anymore, healthcare/education. The money stuff isn't so bad. A downtown Toronto condo is a lot cheaper th…
I moved to Toronto, then to SF. Thought I'd also share my anecdata here.
I used to make ~100k/yr CAD (75k/yr USD) when I was in TO around 6 years ago. I bought a house around 7 years ago for 550k. I did a remote stint for a Boulder company for a couple years (~120k/yr USD working from TO), then moved to SF (~200k/yr USD + ~100k/yr equity).
I'm a bit out of the loop w/ TO salaries nowadays, but your 170k CAD definitely seems to be on the very high end of the spectrum.
A few thoughts:
The biggest difference in pay comes from equity. ~100k/yr is pretty normal in SF big tech companies, whereas equity comp in TO is pretty much unheard of unless you're a partner in a company. Caveat: not all SF companies offer liquid equity, or even equity that is worth anything.
Taxes are higher for me working in SF (largely because salaries of comparable positions are higher in SF)
Living costs depend a lot on whether you have a spouse and/or kids. A bunkbed in SF goes for 1.6k/mo if you're single trying to save up. In TO, you can rent a cheap room for $600/mo. But for families: 2 bed condo is ~48k/yr USD, vs ~24k/yr in similar distance in TO. Another very important point: in SF, a foreigner spouse's ability to work can be extremely tricky (e.g. spouse in non-tech field would often not be able be get a work visa sponsorship at all). Canadians can get a TN visa relatively easily, but the H1B visa required for other foreigners isn't guaranteed. Green card timelines range from 2.5 years to virtually impossible to get. By comparison, getting a work visa in Canada is pretty straightforward, and the path to permanent residence is also relatively easy, regardless of country of origin.
Preschool costs ~28k/yr USD per kid in SF, vs ~18k/yr CAD (13k/yr USD)
Healthcare in SF costs me ~3.6k USD/yr base (plus copays/other fees depending on how frequently I actually use it) vs free in TO. Dental and vision costs are similar between SF and TO.
Goods generally cost less in SF. Milk costs ~$5/gallon USD in SF vs $10/4L CAD ($7 USD) in TO.
IMHO: SF is better for saving up while young, Toronto gets pretty attractive once you have a piggy bank to afford housing/build a family.
Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Working for a Silicon Valley tech company, you typically have extremely good health insurance and a vastly higher salary than anything in Canada. Salaries north of the border are a pittance compared to what you could earn in even a mid-tiered US city. I remember about 3 years ago being offered a “senior” “lead” rails developer position in Toronto paying $C30 per hour. And a non-lead was paying $C25 per hour. Ridiculo…
Eventually most people work out there is value in not being stabbed for the $5 in your wallet and having to walk around in shit covered streets.
Yes, because every tech worker in SF gets stabbed for $5 in their wallet and everyday they walk through poo on their way to work.
On a more serious note, you should learn about how the media works.
One person gets stabbed in SF for $5 and it makes the news, and then people like you believe that every one of the 884k people living in SF get stabbed.
You probably also believe that all Teslas easily catch on fire? Cause you saw it on the news?
Please learn about statistics and sensationalist media.
Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#97Vancouverite here. When major tech companies started setting up satellite offices here, I assumed it'd be a temporary situation, and that we'd be at the mercy of any change in the U.S. immigration process. The longer there's an immigration bottleneck though, the more entrenched these companies become here. There are more senior roles opening up here all the time, and salaries are increasing in this competitive market…
I've also lived in Toronto and Vancouver. Did the obligatory move to work as a software dev in California and now live in Australia. The fact is that tech salaries in Canada are still much lower than the US while the cost of living, especially housing, is still very high, for Vancouver and Toronto in particular. Not to mention the lousy winters.
Spend any time browsing /r/vancouver or /r/toronto and you'll quickly realize that the cost of living is a huge problem. The Vancouver housing market in particular has been absurdly inflated by out of control money laundering. Local salaries and house prices are totally out of whack.
Follow https://twitter.com/mortimer_1/ to see what money laundering has done to the Vancouver housing market. https://twitter.com/mortimer_1/status/1221315000897163264 is a particularly amusing recent thread showing where a would-be landlord writes: "This home is in rough shape and needs painting, and TLC. Looking for long term tenant willing to put labour in while landlord covers all material costs." All this for only $5650/month!
Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also better healthcare. My parents have friends that moved from the US to Canada due to this and the very competitive job market in the US with virtually no employee rights. They weren't working in tech but banking/services.
Working for a Silicon Valley tech company, you typically have extremely good health insurance and a vastly higher salary than anything in Canada. Salaries north of the border are a pittance compared to what you could earn in even a mid-tiered US city. I remember about 3 years ago being offered a “senior” “lead” rails developer position in Toronto paying $C30 per hour. And a non-lead was paying $C25 per hour. Ridiculo…
That ($25CAD) is less than $2.50USD more than Seattle minimum wage (16.39USD)..
Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#99Let's not pretend that Canadian cities are a utopia for tech workers. Vancouver and Toronto are insanely expensive and salaries just don't compare to those a hundred kilometres to the south. Hopefully it steadily improves but I'm not hopeful with these tech companies having virtually an unlimited supply and no incentive to boost salaries.
Language barrier aside, Montréal seems like a hidden gem.
Montreal is an Anglophone city. Last I checked 80% were English speakers (not necessarily primary language).
Now Quebec City is entirely different. I could see language being more challenging there.
Honestly, Montreal is a hidden gem. Low cost housing, ton of culture and history.
The only drawbacks can be the Québécois anti-immigrant and anti-business climate, but it’s not stifling, just more noticeable than the rest of Canada.
Re: U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ____ salaries are less than half than in the US for software developer roles. You can fill the blank with essentially any non-US location and it would remain correct. Nowhere in the world pays tech workers as much as US does, in absolute or relative terms. Most of the world, Canada included, has priced developer salaries close to engineer salaries. The US is the sole exception where developer salaries are priced cl…
>The US is the sole exception where developer salaries are priced close to doctor salaries. This is incorrect. Good software developers in Poland, and to some extent the Ukraine, are enjoying salaries comparable with doctors there, if not more.
Same in Sweden, good developers definitely make more than doctors, especially if we consider total compensation.